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okdoky
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
 Posted - 19/06/2008 : 00:49:36
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In 2002 my wife and I were encouraged at the antinatal classes for our first child to apply for the working family tax credits.
At a time when we were looking to enjoy the birth of our first child we were confronted with the multitude of forms that went along with the various applications. My wife had been on Job Seakers allowance at the time being between jobs.
After sorting that out we were confronted each year with the duplicate sets of thick paperwork that told us of our awards each year. A set for me and a set for the wife. I am a qualified surveyor and this extent of paperwork was information overload with no real scense in what it said or how figures were calculated.
As we understood it, we had three pieces of information to check. My wages which are fixed each year for that year, my benefits in kind, and my wifes status as carer for our first child, then our second child. As my wife decided to stay at home to look after our first child, she informed the Benifits Office soon after her birth that she would stop claiming Job seakers allowance. The information was identified to the HMRC at the first renewal notice in 2003, 2004 and again in 2005.
The duplicate award forms arrived each year and stated in one area that we need do nothing if our joint income did not go beyond certain levels. As I am the sole earner and my income was no where near the higher band level, I assumed that all was in order as the HMRC do not make mistakes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 28 years of PAYE tax calculated by employer and HMRC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, HMRC know what they are doing. "This is money with your name on it". What could they get wrong on three pieces of information.DUHHHHHHHHHH or so I thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We were on holiday at home in Scotland in August 2005 when we found that payments had been stopped and returned home to find our first intimation that we had been overpaid by a sum of 5000pounds. Trying to get information from either call centres, local tax office or Central 1 in Scotland proved hard in the extreme as no one could deal with or advise on the situation other than the Tax credit people. Each time I contacted the office I was confronted by an ever increasing figure that I could not comprehend. 5000pounds in August 7000pounds in September, by April they said we owed 12000pounds.
My wife and I were, to say the least, shocked, stunned, terrified that we had become one of the many growing casualties of a Benefits system that was now being shown on TV almost daily as having failed in the purpose to which it had been designed.
I have always prided myself as being a truely frugal Scot, never borrowing beyond my means and for only the essential house and car loans. Always paying for essentials in cash. Credit cards are something I have never wanted and never used.
I sent a complaint letter along with an appeal against the intension to recover monies paid to us. I also requested under the Freedom of Information legislation copies of all correspondence, call records and a full and detailed explanation of our claim history and how our claims had been calculated. I requested an explanation, in laymans terms as to how this situation arose and what contact was made with other sections of the HMRC service to detemine what our entitlement should have been.
I asked what mistakes had been made in our particular case to allow such a large amount of overpayment to accumulate.
More importantly, I asked what safeguards had been put in place in this overly complicated and overloaded paperwork exercise to protect our interests.
I received a pile of what appears to be data printouts that are frankly meaningless to my untrained eye (not being either an accountant or tax expert), copies of cd discs with telephone conversations that I had with various call centre staff (all very courtious, understanding and sypothetic to our situation).
Not included were copies of my first ever letter to the HMRC in 2002 stating how complicated the system was and how each benefit decision seemed to be so tied up in other benefit decisions that could not be determined until the other benefits were decided.
Also not included was an explanation in laymans terms as to how the applications were calculated, what our benefits had been calculated as, and what, if anything, we should have been entitled to as a comparison.
When asked in 2005 if we wanted to claim for the following year I said that I did not want anything to do with any future claim as there was no way I wanted HMRC to screw us up even further than they appeared to be trying to do to at that time.
We received a responce to our appeal stating that it was supposedly our fault that the situation had occured and that our appeal was not upheld. There was no advice as to what to do next and the reply stated that there was no futher right of appeal.
I raised this matter with my local MP in 2006 and waited for a reply.
We received additional award documentation in 2006 and 2007 indicating awards to us but as we had not completed any information and have not since, and do not now receive any monies, it is assumed that this is HMRC clawing back payments. We received a renewal pack this year to which I have not returned any figures, but called the help line to confirm that I had taken the matter up with my local MP and was still waiting for a satisfactory reply. Also that I did not want to return yet another form for the HMRC to screw up yet again.
The request for answers through the MP was made in 2006. A reply stating that our appeal had been overturned was passed back to my MP but no other explanation was forthcoming as to any of our original questions included with my letter to the MP.
I have been trying to get on with our normal life and failing miserably at keeping it to the back of my mind. We have moved home from a flat to a house that has been done at frugal prices again trying not to over burden my family in debt. The profits we made from the flat we had lived in for 14 years are about to be sunk into a much needed extension to the small house to accommodate the needs of our fast growing two children. This is our family home for life, not for the moment!
I sit each night terrified as to what the post holds as we don't know where we stand, what went wrong in this crazy, mixed up, computer generated nightmare that seems to have affected thousands of people. We made no fraudulant claim and on several occasions I asked the question did we give HMRC correct information, to which I have recorded answers stating that we had.
I don't know what to do next and really don't know my rights. The local Citisens advice centre were innundated with similar requests for help, and whilst well meaning, I understand that they have the same lack of understanding of this crazy system that affects the rest of us mere mortals. HMRC seems to be a law unto themselves.
This hole debacle has stressed my wife and I to the ultimate with my wife, and even myself (a supposed grown man of reasonable inteligence) being reduced to tears. Long held plans we made for our future family growth and development seem now to be so much at risk. This was not of our making.
Any help and advice would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!
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Willow
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 19/06/2008 : 09:20:52
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| Hang on in there okdoky. There'll be folks along soon who can help you to pick apart what to do next. There is a lot of information here, not least the Dispute Pack which you may find useful. Looks like you might need to involve someone from the press? You can ask them to keep you anonymous if you prefer. Keep your chin up (I too have a "debt" of £12500 sop I know how hard it is to stay sane and enjoy your everyday life at the moment with that all swishing around in the back of your mind) and check back here frequently. |
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auntieh
Rank; Really should become a politician
United Kingdom
619 Posts |
Posted - 19/06/2008 : 09:48:04
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Hi okdoky.
Sorry to hear your all too familiar story. Don't despair - there are loads of us here in similar situations.
What seems to be lacking from your very full account is any explananation as to why the alleged overpayment occurred and I suspect that this is because HMRC has not given you one.
You must insist on this. Go back to your MP, visit him or her at their surgery and insist that they take up this matter again. There is an MP's hotline for them to contact HMRC re tax credit claims. It's very heavily used, since tax credit issues make up the bulk of most MPs' constituency work and they tend to get quicker responses than us members of Joe Public can expect.
As for the reams of paper you have received from your SARN reqeust, yes they do mean something and are most probably the key to working out for yourself what has happened. You do need someone who knows the system to explain them to you. I didn't realise the significance of mine until an expert looked at them and told me that there were at least six different versions of my claim in HMRC's records. This is why we were never informed of the overpayment until about two and a half years later. HMRC has no way of proving what correspondence it has sent to you in these circumstances. Now it has been explained to me I can see this for myself.
You could try taking your case, along with all your paperwork, to your local Citizens Adive Bureau. They deal with these issues all the time, although you may have to wait and the service does vary from one office to another. Hopefully also others with expert knowledge such as missfroy or splashin will be along soon to offer some advice.
Do look at the main web site for loads of useful information and advice about how to go about challenging and investigating an overpayment etc. www.taxcc.org/
Good luck and keep your chin up. Don't let the b*****s get you down!
Auntie
"You can dress a pig in a suit but you can't stop it grunting" |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/06/2008 : 11:55:17
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Hi okydoky
Welcome aboard!
After much persuasion I have finally got my MP (Dave Anderson, Labour, Blaydon) to take an interest in the Tax Credit Fiasco and our little group Tax Credit Casualties.
I intend to copy & paste your story - and others - to him and ask that he raise these issues with the Unelected One and get us some answers and (hopefully) action.
Meanwhile, I would suggest that you go back to your MP and insist that he/she does the same. NEVER lose sight of the fact that YOUR MP works for YOU - not the other way around - and don't be afraid to remind him/her of this fact!! You're a Jock & I'm a Geordie and we share some sayings; one of which is "shy bairns get 'nowt!"
I suggest too that you start a guerrilla campaign - as I did - and write lots of letters to Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling & Jane Kennedy and maybe post them a couple of CD's each? Make a point of doing this at least once every month.
The CD's could be anything - old ABBA stuff, blank or better still, filled with case studies lifted from here.
My thinking behind this is that the fools at HMRC "lost" 2 CDs full of peoples data and if we all send 2 CDs to Brown, Darling & Kennedy it will not only be a reminder to them of the incompetence of HMRC, it will also cause them some inconvenience - each CD will need to be examined just in case it's the "genuine" article!
It's a great game that can also be played by your family members & friends.
These fools have caused us a great deal of distress and hassle, so I think it only fair that we should return the compliment!
The tail should not be wagging the dog, but in Brown's Britain we see more & more examples that it is! Time to change all that I think.
BTW - I won my case by using some "unorthodox" tactics.
NOTE!! this is in addition to - not instead of - the advice given by Auntieh, Willow and others!!
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon rocks!!" |
Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 19/06/2008 11:58:24 |
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okdoky
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 19/06/2008 : 22:38:37
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Thanks Auntie Willow and Alan for the welcome.
If it weren't for the serious, shi**y nature of this hellhole that HRH's finest clowns have inflicted on us all and the rest of Britain I would really say I am pleased to be in such fine company in the worst of cesspools. I just hope that I can learn to breath under all the extra poo that slowly builds up on top.
Right now my blood is boiling as last night I could not get a wink of sleep all night as I sat here typing or tossed and turned disturbing the wife's sleep, and now I feel the need again to blurt out just how sick in the stomoch I feel right this moment in time!
They say it is theraputic to talk, but right now all i can think of is anger, biterness and hurt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, feelings that should not go through sane peoples minds! Maybe it is just the lack of sleep.
I am greatful for all your support and it would be nice to believe that there will be that magic light at the end of the tunnel. The past two and half, christ soon to be three years has just been pure bloody torture. It is like a long tight noose dangling over the forehead, just waiting to be pulled down to the neck, and they don't even have the decency to offer us a hood so we don't know when the guy is going to pull the lever.
If our work had documents so badly constructed and designed we would be given the sack for producing them. We are all supposed to be governed by rules to reduce jargon, use of clear speach and assist in easy understanding of what can be very complicated subjects. With regard to financial aspects, calculations are kept as basic and easy as possible for both the lay person and the staff to understand and deal with easily.
Right now all I want to do is punch the lights out of the stupid idiotic tosspot who drempt up this method of blasting healthy, happy families in to fearful, debt ridden groups of angry, tormented and vengeful individuals who worry if the marital bliss they have enjoyed for years will suddenly crash about the ears as a magic carpet like brown envelope floats delicately through their letter box and rips the heart out of there home.
In my forties now and the only serious debt I have ever, ever had is to secure my shelter for myself and my family and the transport to get me to my work that I have barely missed about three weeks of due to sickness in the 28 years I have worked with the same employer. I have never had a criminal record or missed a single tax disc, MOT or other vital bill or duty to HRH.
All this has the potential to be shat upon from the greatest of hights by the mighty HMRC.
As you might tell I am NOT BITTER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, AM I??????????
Had far too much time at work to think over last night and just needed to vent! Sorry folks! Theraputic?? Time will tell.
Again, thanks to all in advance for your advice. I know I will probably need to get a lot.
And sorry for the rambling. It is better than screaming in the garden. I am sure the neighbours would love me for that.
Will try to get on here more often and keep the rambles to the minimum. Unless there is a space on here to vent! Is there?
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/06/2008 : 22:45:24
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>>Right now all I want to do is punch the lights out of the stupid idiotic tosspot who drempt up this method of blasting healthy, happy families in to fearful, debt ridden groups of angry, tormented and vengeful individuals who worry if the marital bliss they have enjoyed for years will suddenly crash about the ears as a magic carpet like brown envelope floats delicately through their letter box and rips the heart out of there home.<<
You're not going to appreciate me telling you this; the man you seek is another Scotsman!!
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon rocks!!" |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/06/2008 : 22:47:31
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>>Will try to get on here more often and keep the rambles to the minimum. Unless there is a space on here to vent! Is there?<<
There was a "Rant Page" a while ago, but Sammy used it all up!!
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon rocks!!" |
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auntieh
Rank; Really should become a politician
United Kingdom
619 Posts |
Posted - 20/06/2008 : 23:18:16
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I used to feel like that okdoky but after nearly three years of disputing and getting nowhere I've learnt somehow to push it to the back of my mind most of the time, mainly by focusing on all the good things in my life. Alan is great for raising your spirits too! Like you I have no criminal record, the most I have ever had is a parking ticket. I have not set out to defraud HMRC or anyone else. I work hard in a very stressful job. The only time I didn't work was when I was at home looking after my lovely children, including one who has severe learning difficulties so of course also had to deal with all the angst and aggravation that comes with having a child with special needs.
Being persecuted by a grossly incompetent government department that has c****d up and now wants you to pay for its mistakes could be exremely demoralising and I can truly appreciate how bitter and angry you are feeling. But why let them win? You have much to be thankful for I'm sure so don't let these charlatans ruin your family life and all you have worked for. You're not alone and there's safety in numbers. We will succeed!!
And yes the idiot who dreamed up this fiasco certainly is none other than the unelected leader who has been foisted on us whether we like it or not. To put it more accurately he pinched the idea from the Australians who had already discovered it doesn't work.
Love Auntie
"You can dress a pig in a suit but you can't stop it grunting" |
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 23/06/2008 : 09:30:50
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Welcome Okydoky
You are in the right place! I stumbled across this site after a year of arguing my case. I was frazzled, crying, awake at night constantly arguing with my husband and furious about the injustice of it all! The advice and help I have received on here has been phenomenal. It has allowed me to dispute without it taking over my life. I am two years in now and continue to fight the good fight! It's amazing how the one piece of documentation you actually need is always missing from the SARN request isn't it? This happened to me but I later found it in the cd of phone calls!Take heart from people like Alan The Geordie who has won his case. I do! Finding this site will hopefully change things for you like it has for me!! |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 23/06/2008 : 12:24:22
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>>Take heart from people like Alan The Geordie who has won his case. I do!<<
I don't know what to say. I'm suddenly feeling very humble and am blushing a bit, but thanks anyway bonny lass!
It IS possible to beat these barstewards, but you need to stick to your guns and think outside the box a bit.
I liken the whole thing to fighting a war where if you play by the Geneva Convention rules you will not get very far - or if you do it will take rather a long time. Instead you have to adopt some guerrilla tactics and even fight dirty.
Throw the rule book away - like HMRC have done - & get stuck in!!
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon rocks!!" |
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My heart pounds trying to understand why
