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flamer
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
 Posted - 22/05/2008 : 20:27:49
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Hi All.
Looks like a good place to talk about the government I or rather we elected that is now screwing me into the floor.
My wife and three kids moved in with me in Apr 04, and the tax credit thing seemed a good idea at the time.
There is no way we could have afforded to have lived together without the boost from the TCO.
We had another baby girl in 04, bringing the total up to six of us.
As my earnings went up, the payments went down. No problem same money coming in and all was real happy.
Just as the TCO office do, our annual return went in and got lost. Next thing I know I got a bill for just under £6,000.00 in overpayments!
Well, I must admit I did not see this one coming at all.
I run a small company that employs a few people, can do accounts, book keeping, vat do my own tax return etc but:-
WOW, how did I miss this one???????
Its not really very clear at all.
So, I found your site and have had my first dispute thrown back at me and basically have not heard much until today.
Have had a bit of a row with the collections lady at the revenue today.
My Solicitor, who I have used for many years calls her the Witch.
This is very out of character for him so things must be looking bad.
Not sure if I have avoided legal action at the moment as I dont think she beleived me.
So I have no second tier complaint yet but will have ready to post by tomorrow. I will also copy the 'Witch' that she cant screw me whilst this 2nd tier complaint is being carried out.
Not really sure what to do next. Am in the middle of copying everything to my MP after speaking to his office on the phone today.
If we had the money we would repay it but we just dont have it.
The letters I have that admit they made mistakes, they change the amount we owe as they feel fit.
At the moment I feel like 'jumping ship' like both my brothers. One has moved to Canada and the other to New Zealand.
The very system invented to help us out basically screwed me in the end. How did I not see this coming?
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
 Posted - 22/05/2008 : 20:42:55
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Hi
Sorry to hear about your tax credit problems.
It is probably worth pointing out that official HMRC policy is not to suspend recovery of an overpayment during the complaints process.
This means that recovery proceedings can (and often do) continue even though a complaint is lodged.
That said, some Debt Management staff are willing to put a hold on a case if you tell them you are filing a complaint etc...
The only way of getting your recovery suspended is to dispute with new evidence.
You say that your overpayment is related to the renewals process. It would help if you could give more information:
1. What year does the overpayment relate to?
2. Did you definately return the renewals forms - do you have any proof of posting etc?
3. Did you contact Tax credit helpline when your payments stopped - if so what did they say?
4. Did you submit a new claim - if so how long after your claim was terminated?
If the form was lost, you should have received a letter saying that they were terminating your payments. If you contacted them within 30 days of that then your award could be reinstated (outside of 30 days it can only be reinstated with good cause). However, it depends on whether you made contact.
Also £6000 sounds a lot for only a portion of the tax year, it could be that there are other overpayments (or it could be just that your award is high/income is low).
MF2 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2008 : 05:04:42
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Hi Flamer,
Do go to www.taxCC.org and use anything helpful to your dispute that you find there. Good luck!
And if you find it helpful, please go to http://www.newstatesman.com/nma/nma2008/entry/200805050002 and post a comment - help us win! Thanks.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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flamer
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2008 : 12:19:05
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Overpayment Dispute Team
Tax Credit Office
Preston
PR1 0SB
RECORDED DELIVERY
Dear Sir or Madam,
We write with reference to the outstanding amounts that you claim we currently owe due to tax credit overpayments.
Attached is a completed tax credits overpayment form, with all details contained within this attached letter.
The period of overpayments relates to the following periods;
2004 to 2005
2005 to 2006
2006 to 2007
We began the claim in 2004 as we were informed from various advertising that we may be able to claim monies to help subsidies our income.
At the time we had three children (from my wife’s previous partner), with another child due in a few months.
We began the claim by telephone, and submitted all required figures regarding income over the telephone, from my pay slips and relevant P60 forms.
It was the Tax Credits office who then determined by some means, the amount of payments we should receive each month.
At some time in the period 2004 to 2005, a substantial amount of funds was transferred into our bank account, with no correspondence from you whatsoever.
We did at this point telephone the tax credits help line to confirm this funds transfer was correct.
We were told ‘don’t worry, it’s definitely correct and your money, you are due and entitled to it.
As I hope you can imagine, with me being the only working person in our family, this was a significant boost and enabled us to provide for our growing up children who were shortly moving to Secondary School.
We have had severe problems with regards to the Child Support Agency, and they have been unable to obtain any monies for the children, with the exception of a few ‘ad hoc’ payments.
When our last child ‘Indya’ was born on 21st Oct 2004, we duly notified the Tax Credits Office of the latest addition to our family, and the claim was changed accordingly.
At the end of the 2004-2005 claim period, we duly completed our end of year paperwork and submitted it to the Tax Credits Office.
We believe that this was ‘internally lost’ for many weeks as we received a letter stating our claim would (or was) stopped.
We think that the end of year return was finally completed by telephone.
This contained details of all relevant earnings from my P60 form.
A change was made to our claim to compensate for the previous year, and the Tax Credits Office continued to pay us monies.
Again, it was the Tax Credits office who estimated my wages and further it was the Tax Credits Office who calculated and told us the amount we were ‘entitled to’.
We did telephone with regards to the amounts paid in this second period of 2005 to 2006.
At no time ever during this period was the seriousness of these overpayments fully explained to us.
We accepted that the ‘deduction’ from the 2005 to 2006 payments would fully cover any overpayments for the 2004 to 2005 period.
We even telephoned the Tax Credits Helpline to confirm all was in good order and were simply re-assured we had nothing to worry about again.
We seem to remember that you stopped paying monies to us during the 2005 to 2006 period, to help ‘recover’ the overpayments you made to us.
Again, during telephone conversations between us we were again re-assured not to worry and that all our claim was in order.
We had even seen the bad publicity in the press regarding the overpayment of tax credits to families.
Further calls were made and again we were re-assured that our claim was in good order and we had no need to worry.
Due to the information and the re-assurance that the Tax Credit Office made to us, we continued with the claim following the advice given by the Tax Credits Office.
At the end of the 2005 to 2006 claim period, we again completed and duly returned our end of year documents and returned by post.
These were again lost and we completed our end of year by telephone.
Again, further changes were made to compensate for overpayments now for both periods of 2004 to 2005 and 2005 to 2006.
You continued to pay us funds of various amounts during this period.
Overpayments were briefly mentioned to us, but it would appear now that any attempt to discuss these amounts was quickly ‘brushed aside’ by the Tax Credits Office, and the conversation was quickly changed.
We continued with the claim as we were constantly assured we were entitled to the money, and we should not worry about it at all.
It was at the end of the 2006 to 2007 period when things began to ‘hit home’ regarding the overpayments you claimed to have made to us.
Again, we completed our end of year paperwork and submitted it to you duly through the post.
We heard nothing from the Tax Credit Office and assumed that for at least one period, you may have actually received and processed the end of year paperwork.
We received some weeks later a letter saying out payments had now stopped and you were asking for us to return to you a significant amount of money.
We contacted the Tax Credits Office and basically had to seriously ‘extract’ the seriousness of the situation from the operative.
After many telephone calls, one of your operatives basically said ‘look I will tell you the deal with your tax credits claim’.
It was at this point that things began to seriously hit home, and if your operative had not disclosed this information we would probably still be claiming, still be receiving money and the system designed to help us would be further causing us to enter into more debt.
The first thing he explained was that if we started the claim again, you would not chase us for the overpayments.
He advised we should do this for a ‘very short period of time’, so we could gather together enough information to work out how the Tax Credits System had basically ‘fooled us’.
We must admit that we were taken aback when we discovered the seriousness of the situation.
In the continued 2007 to 2008 claim, you were paying us monies that you continued to tell us we were due.
In actual fact, we were probably due none of this money, but at least your computer calculated we were.
A large proportion of the 2007 to 2008 claim was taken from us to pay back overpayments from the previous periods.
This is where the problems begin. The Tax Credits Office tells us we are due monies for a financial period.
Based on the information that the operative gave us, it was explained as follows.
Using 2007 to 2008 as an example, you pay us X pounds and take Y pounds off us to pay back previous years overpayments.
If we are not due X pounds in the first place, then why continue to pay us? You are paying us money we are not due, and even worse using this money to pay off previous years overpayments.
Had we continued the claim, it would have continued to place us into further debt with the Tax Credits System until we realized this.
We started to ‘work things out’ and then contacted the Tax Credit Office.
At this point the Tax Credit Office could not even tell us the amount we owed, and the amounts the ‘Recovery’ department claimed we owed did not match that that the Tax Credit Office told us.
Having basically argued with another operative at the Tax Credits office regarding the situation we were in, they gave up and admitted to us that ‘yes, the longer you claim, the more money you will owe us’.
We studied as much of the paperwork we had to hand, and even in these ‘Notices’ the seriousness of the situation is simply ‘overlooked’.
We duly stopped the claim, even though your operative continued to tell us ‘it will be ok soon when things catch up there is no need to stop claiming’
Within a few weeks or so after the system had ‘caught up’ with our overpayments, we were absolutely taken aback by the amount you claim we owe you.
We currently estimate this amount at around £6,348.09.
We would like to understand how a system designed to help us by supplementing my wages, can land us in debt of £6,348.09?
If we had fully been made aware of this back in the first period we claimed, I would have started to work weekends to supplement our income.
At least this route would have given us ‘earned money’ that we could keep.
The paperwork we receive from the Tax Credit office by way of ‘Notices’ and ‘decisions’ is extremely complicated and does not explain the situation we are in at all.
We are utterly disgusted with the ‘help’ of your staff, who seem trained to overlook the important things which really matter – debt.
We thank you for you offer of allowing us to pay these funds back over a period of twelve months, which would equate to about £634.81 per month.
We have just had to re-mortgage our property on an interest only basis, partly due to an increase in interest rates and partly to replace the help that you never really gave us.
As you can imagine, we are finding it hard enough in today’s current economic times to satisfactorily provide a home for our children, and the bear necessities they need to complete school and leave with a good education, without the added failed promises of the Tax Credit Office.
We have taken advice from various bodies regarding our situation.
Firstly, you should accept this letter as our intent to place the current entire Tax Credits Claim into Dispute.
We have been further advised to notify you that you should consider completely writing the debt off, due to incompetence and lies on your part.
We feel we have been constantly ‘lied to’ regarding our situation and the attempt by the HM Revenue & Customs to completely ‘finish us off’ is absolutely ridiculous.
As a family, we just can not meet the repayments you are requesting and it would drive us into poverty and hardship and possibly homelessness through no fault of our own.
The entire Tax Credit System should be completely re-organized and a system that actually does help families be put in place.
We feel the staff you employ never actually ‘paint a real picture’ and leave families like us with a false sense of hope.
It was the Tax Credit Office which decided how much to pay us, each and every time a claim was made or adjusted, not us.
We have never made a false claim or submitted to you information that is false or incorrect.
We have at all times during the last few years contacted you to verify that the payments you have made are correct. You have constantly re-assured us that we have no need to worry and that we were due the money.
This can only now be considered as ‘lies’ from your operatives.
We duly notify you that we wish the entire matter to be placed into dispute.
You have made serious mistakes throughout the entire claims procedure, and have offered us nothing but incorrect advice.
We received a letter dated 28th August that admits a failure on your part.
Quote;
‘WE have identified an Administration Problem that means we have had to review a small proportion of Tax Credit Claims for earlier years….. WE HAVE DISCOVERED that in certain cases WE DID NOT follow the correct procedure…… This letter is to make you aware that YOURS IS ONE OF THESE CASES’
As stated on your letter, tax credit awards for period 2003 to 2004 and or 2004 to 2005.
It would appear from this letter that you can not even decide which of the two periods apply.
This letter is evidence in itself of the incompetence of the Tax Credits Office.
We have received no further communications regarding this matter, even though YOU are disputing your own information, and YOU are continuing to chase us for monies.
We feel we have made contact with the Tax Credit Office enough times to believe the payment you made to us were correct.
It would be inappropriate for us to contact you on a daily or weekly basis to ‘check our claim’ as you constantly tell us we ‘have no worries’.
You were unable on numerous occasions to provide us with the required amount of information we requested with regards to the overpayments.
It was the Tax Credit Office who told us at ALL TIMES that the funds given to us were ours, although this would now appear to be false information.
We await your correspondence.
Assuring you of our fullest co-operation at all times.
Kind Regards
Philip Charles Hamer Samantha Hamer
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2008 : 15:16:04
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A very detailed letter.
Clearly the overpayment has several causes, I think you should take all of your award notices and paperwork and seek professional advice.
There are many agencies out there (CAB, TaxAID, LITRG, Local Authorities) who offer free, professional help. HMRC are notorious for not giving people explanations of why overpayments have arisen, and even when you get an explanation it is often incorrect.
Whilst your letter is very detailed, my experiences within HMRC would lead me to think that you might not be successful in the dispute because your argument is an overall general argument regarding poor advice and service from HMRC.
I would therefore say that the place to start is to break down the overpayment into individual causes. You can then construct arguments and gather evidence against each of these individual causes, it is more likely to be successful in my experience to do this than just writing general dispute letters.
However, this is no easy task for most people given the complexity of the award notices and the way the tax credit system works. That is why I would suggest that you seek professional advice with someone who can at least identify the individual causes of your overpayment.
For example - say your had an income error (common in the earlier years) and then your renewal forms went missing. Two causes that would have different arguments in getting them written off.
The COP 26 (the booklet telling you about overpayment disputes) test has to be applied to each cause, rather than the whole overpayment.
Finally, you also need to someone to check your entitlement figures for each of the years and to make sure that the overpayment needs disputing. If there are entitlement issues that have led to the overpayment, an appeal would need to be submitted for which there are strict time limits - this is different from a dispute.
As I said before, a complaint in itself isn't generally enough to stop recovery (or at least it isn't official HMRC policy to do so). I would therefore suggest you need to dispute and since it is obviously complex, seek out some assistance.
Good luck
MF |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2008 : 17:47:11
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Hi Flamer
Get your SAR in and from the masses of paperwork you will receive - and recordings of your telephone calls on CD - you will have some ammunition.
Get your SAR application here; http://www.taxcc.org/dispute2.htm
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 09:00:31
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Flamer, that's a well-written letter, and if the system were not so adversarial and HMRC were more willing to use their discretion, by all rights you should be successful. But the reality is that HMRC will probably just 'note your concerns' and reiterate that you owe this money and must pay it back or else - and that they are sorry if you are 'disappointed' with their response. As MissFroy says, HMRC will not provide proper answers, and I believe she is right - general dispute letters don't generally succeed as quickly as we would expect because HMRC do not take the trouble to consider and look into every point. I have also come to the conclusion that it might be better to take the issues point by point. I know of more people who chisel away at their HMRC 'debts' by having £2000 knocked off here, £3000 there, than those who have immediate write-offs. But mine is just an observation, not necessarily the way things are. The key is to persevere, and not lose heart, be ground down or fobbed off. It is easy to give up, and HMRC wage a War of attrition against us, knowing they have ultimate clout and that we are juggling more in our lives than just our disputes. I would follow the advice of both MissFroy and Alan, and make sure all your SARN papers are looked at thoroughly. You will be amazed what errors you will find! Good luck, and please remember to leave a comment or 'vote' for us on the New Statesman Nomination! It's at:
http://www.newstatesman.com/nma/nma2008/entry/200805050002
Please help us win, get more publicity, and reach more and more Tax Credit Casualties like yourself!
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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Recovery Department Getting Heavy
