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CheeseOnToast
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
1 Posts |
 Posted - 17/05/2008 : 12:07:41
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Hi everyone,
My name is Phil and as I guess a lot of the stories here are, mine is a long one!
Basically, just over 3 years ago I was overpaid in Tax Credits.
I can't remember details and I threw all the letters but I remember the intial requests being somewhere in the region of £2500
I never disputed or looked into it, I just ignored the letters and moved house (not because of that obviously!)
I know I was definately overpaid, and it was my fault for not sending back my renewal form or about a change of circumstances. I was getting paid more during the end of the year, but I didn't notify them (in all honesty I didn't know I had too - I had only just turned 21 and was very naive and a bit of a loose cannon) - and I didn't send a renewal form either at all.
At the time of the overpayment, I thought that I would just stop claiming and allow what they should continue to pay me to wipe out what I was overpaid.
But some time ago I read online that it wouldn't work like that, as I didn't even submit the claim.
I am already in a significant amount of personal debt but I am on my feet and making good headway on it (no missed payments, defaults etc) but this is causing us a massive problem.
We don't get any help towards childcare payments, no dental or NHS card, glasses etc - basically lots of things low income families should get.
I am too scared to put a new claim in now (I would still be entitled to the family element) incase they ask me to pay back everything in a month, or even 12 months would still be impossible for me.
I have never heard from them since I moved house (3 years) and part of me feels like just hiding away and ignoring it, but then I know it's something I need to sort out, because one day it's bound to catch up with me (well, probably?) - Should I just submit a new claim and then wait for the letters regarding the overpayment?
I also have another little one on the way due in 2 months so really don't want all this crap dragging on for the years to follow.
Please advise 
Thanks everyone,
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Red Rocket
Rank; Captain Gordon
United Kingdom
223 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2008 : 15:19:24
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You are right one day it will catch up with you. Firstly you need to work through dates, earnings for each year etc etc.
Get all the info you can on one sheet, do this before you do anthing else, you really need to be quite honest at this point. You need to get a very good idea in your own mind of what you need to disclose to HMRC.
I will say no more at this point, others will be along soon.
Keep posting and checking in, everyone gives up time for free, so expect replies over next couple of days.
Maybe one for you PFM500 ?
" Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. "
George Orwell |
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pfm500
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
40 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2008 : 14:48:36
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Okey kokey.
First of all, i would submit another claim (if you have not already done so) as having an overpayment does not affect your right to claim again. That way you can get a little bit of extra cash for your new arrival.
When you submit your claim fill in your previous year income details (including your partner if you have one) and when your claim is processed and the award is issued call them right away, and give them estimates for the current year (and make it very generous- would you mind telling me what your total household income is?)
You may qualify for an NHS exemption certificate for you and your family. If you satisfy one of these criteria (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/passben_exemptions/exemption_info.htm).
So if you can help it, make sure that your estimate for the year is less than 15,575. (obviously if it going to much higher than this, defrauding TCO will only cause more problems in the long run).
With renewal terminated claims, they can only be restored after 31/08/0x if there is an very good reason. You might want to try and lie to them and say that you were hospitalised and were incapable of completing it, and if they ask for proof im sure your doctor might be willing to tell a little white lie to help you out.
You might have read that i am a contact centre advisor (now ex...yay!) but i can give you and anyone else good advise on how to make sure your claim runs smoothly.
I would also consider speaking to the CAB. They are truely excellent at what they do, and can help you come to an arrangement with your creditors.
If you want anymore help, just yell |
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pfm500
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
40 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2008 : 14:49:52
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| also, if you dispute the overpayment. Recovery is halted until the dispute is resolved, so if you're getting any nasty letters, call 0845 300 3900 and ask them for a COP26 and a TC846 (overpayment dispute form) |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2008 : 19:16:43
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>>Recovery is halted until the dispute is resolved, ... <<
Aye, that's a very interesting theory hinny.
In practice, these b astards tried to take me to court THREE times while I was still in dispute AND sitting with no fewer than THREE letters in my sticky little mitt from them telling me that they would take no further action while the dispute process was ongoing!!!
pfm500 - with all due respects to you my Friend, you and your colleagues are being treated like mushrooms by your employer HMRC; you are being kept in the dark & fed on bullshine! 
Welcome to the real world of HMRC and Tax Credits! We really do value your input and contribution to this forum, but please (pretty please even) wake up and smell the coffee!!
(and, for the record, I WON my case!) 
"There are lies, damn' lies and "facts" from HMRC" |
Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 18/05/2008 19:56:55 |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2008 : 20:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by pfm500
Okey kokey.
First of all, i would submit another claim (if you have not already done so) as having an overpayment does not affect your right to claim again. That way you can get a little bit of extra cash for your new arrival.
When you submit your claim fill in your previous year income details (including your partner if you have one) and when your claim is processed and the award is issued call them right away, and give them estimates for the current year (and make it very generous- would you mind telling me what your total household income is?)
You may qualify for an NHS exemption certificate for you and your family. If you satisfy one of these criteria (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/passben_exemptions/exemption_info.htm).
So if you can help it, make sure that your estimate for the year is less than 15,575. (obviously if it going to much higher than this, defrauding TCO will only cause more problems in the long run).
With renewal terminated claims, they can only be restored after 31/08/0x if there is an very good reason. You might want to try and lie to them and say that you were hospitalised and were incapable of completing it, and if they ask for proof im sure your doctor might be willing to tell a little white lie to help you out.
You might have read that i am a contact centre advisor (now ex...yay!) but i can give you and anyone else good advise on how to make sure your claim runs smoothly.
I would also consider speaking to the CAB. They are truely excellent at what they do, and can help you come to an arrangement with your creditors.
If you want anymore help, just yell
I have to disagree with much of the advice given by PFM500.
I do agree that you should make a new claim. I also think that you should address the overpayment that you have from your previous claim rather than allowing it to continue escalating in the background.
However...lying about your failure to renew is certainly not a sensible suggestion, and I am sure no doctor would be willing to do this for you. If there were any genuine reasons why you didn't complete your renewal then do put them forward.
The second thing is regarding the advice PFM500 has given regarding making a new claim and estimating income.
There is no point in making a 'very generous' underestimate of your income. Your tax credits will be initially based on your previous year income (2007-2008). If your 2008-2009 income is expected to be lower then you can give an estimate and have your award based on the new estimated amount.
However, there is a huge warning attached to this. If you provide an estimate that is too low (i.e. lower than previous year) and your actual income for 08-09 is higher you will have another overpayment. That is because the £25,000 disregard which exists only protects you when your current year income (2008-2009 in this case) rises as compared to your previous year income. It will not protect you if you give an estimate that is too low.
Therefore, I cannot see why PFM500 would suggest purposefully underestimating your income. Whilst you may receive some passported benefits (prescriptions, health costs etc...) you will most certainly have an overpayment.
That said, if you genuinely think your income is going to be low there is nothing to stop anyone estimating any current year income figure to HMRC, however there will most certainly be an overpayment if your actual income is higher.
Well done for addressing your debts and trying to deal with this.
I do agree with PFM500 that CAB are excellent and that you should seek their advice.
Good luck
MF2
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Red Rocket
Rank; Captain Gordon
United Kingdom
223 Posts |
Posted - 18/05/2008 : 20:49:38
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PFM500 I do not think it is a good idea to suggest that anyone commit fraud.
" Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. "
George Orwell |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 00:25:16
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>>You might want to try and lie to them and say that you were hospitalised and were incapable of completing it, and if they ask for proof im sure your doctor might be willing to tell a little white lie to help you out.
You might have read that i am a contact centre advisor (now ex...yay!) but i can give you and anyone else good advise on how to make sure your claim runs smoothly.<<
And this is advice from a "contact centre advisor (now ex...yay!)"??!!
Is it therefore any wonder that so many people have so many problems with Tax Credits when we have such 24 carat pillocks working on the "Help" desk??
Sometimes I really do despair!
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 19/05/2008 02:09:03 |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 00:36:19
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I really do hope that pfm500 continues to offer us his/her advice - I for one find it very enlightening!
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 08:03:57
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Sorry, pfm, but there's no way that people should be underestimating their annual income. It doesn't feel right, and it is doomed to failure. I am not about to knock your ability to do your (ex) job, but I am sure you can see that these things are always different from the recieving end than from the administrative perspective of 'what should happen', and to work in your old organisation is, I am sure, to experience some of its power and clout - we get to see rather a lot more!!! We aren't fraudsters here but honest people,and not only would it go against the grain but it will invite the biggest problems. By all means continue to offer suggestions, but I would be wary of giving bad advice. Indeed, when I say what I would do, I offer it as exactly that - what I would do, but not necessarily the best advice. That would certainly earn you more respect, especially as people here do tend to take 'expert' advice as solid and good, and I would hate for anyone to get in a mess because it was wrong.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 11:22:08
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>>people here do tend to take 'expert' advice<<
"Expert"; defined as "EX" as in a has been and "SPURT" as in a drip under pressure!
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 16:07:46
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Insults aside, there is evidence that there isn't a great deal of consistency in advice given, and as we see here, it can range from excellent to less so:
(with thanks to Robert) The relationship between HM Revenue & Customs, its customers and the voluntary and community sector
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/report32.pdf
‘Failed contact’
was often driven by a lack of understanding of the advice given by HMRC. Some customers complained that the advice they received from different advisors or departments was inconsistent and were confused about which alternative to pursue. Others criticised their advisor’s inability to provide them with clear and simple explanations, or to supply them with an explanation at all. Many customers attributed this to the fact that HMRC staff were lacking in the required level of knowledge and expertise to function effectively. This was seen to be exacerbated by a system that involved many different staff in any one case, thus relying heavily on effective record-keeping and on an individual’s ability to get up to speed with the details. A dedicated ‘key-worker’ or team approach was thought to be a much more reliable solution.
Not a dig at pfm, but specifically at the 'system'[sic].
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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pfm500
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
40 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 22:01:17
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Sorry MF2, you have mis read my original post.
quote:
and give them estimates for the current year (and make it very generous)
generous on the higher end. not a fraudulent, lesser income.
The intention of the post, was to ensure that CheeseOnToast gets the passported benefits "if" s/he qualifies for them:
quote:
So if you can help it, make sure that your estimate for the year is less than 15,575. (obviously if it going to much higher than this, defrauding TCO will only cause more problems in the long run)
.
The advice i gave about speaking to a doctor, was not my professional opinion, i was merely taking advantage of what i know, that being incapacitated (severely) can be a mititgating circumstance for a terminated claim being restored, and i gave this advice based on my own experience, when i had some money problems my doctor was happy to help me out.
Alan
quote:
pfm500 - with all due respects to you my Friend, you and your colleagues are being treated like mushrooms by your employer HMRC; you are being kept in the dark & fed on bullshine
I am starting to believe this more and more with the horror stories that i am reading here. I fully accept my limitations, and over the past few weeks, have realised that collectively the regular posters, have a hell of a lot of information at their disposal.
I apologise for the original confusion writing is not my forté
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2008 : 07:32:35
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Pfm, that's good of you to acknowledge that your previous understanding wasn't quite right and the limitations of the knowledge you left HMRC with, and sets the scene for a better understanding between us all, so thanks for that.
Just imagine being a compliant, honest, hardworking claimant used to having HMRC deal accurately with taxation and the forerunner of tax credits, which I think was Family Credit - painless, reliable and accurate. You are told tax credits are 'Money with your name on it', and no warning is given of a system rolled out too soon with flawed computers and staff who have been trained to a basic level without real understanding of a phenomenally complex and flawed system, with a tendency to inbuilt overpayments. You claim for three or four years without mishap. Suddenly, something causes your award to be looked at again - in my case, declaring my same-sex relationship due to the Civil Partnership Act coming into force. Next you know, just before Christmas, when you have no money, you get a wapping £5880 bill with a snotty note and a bank giro credit attached for immediate repayment. Happy Christmas! Happy Civil Partnership! It states that you 'can't appeal' and must pay up at once, or be taken to court. All your questions go unanswered. The demands keep coming. Your partner thinks it must be your fault, and you start (temporarily, it is true) bickering. Christmas is ruined, with no money and the spectre of massive debt, loss of everything you have. Every time you ask HMRC what's happened, your requests are blocked. A war of attrition begins. Threats continue. Your MP (Nu Labour) is enlisted - even she thinks you are hard done by - but unique (because Tax Credits 'help' six million families - that's the mantra). She gets told you're overpaid because you told them one year you earned £45,000 and the next your 37 hour week earned you £0.00 or £0.01. When you get your SARN data you find your salary was zeroed not once, not twice, but three times (perhaps even more), whilst Helpline operators had always said things were tickety-boo. After months if not years of battling, LITRG get involved and insist you could never have known they zeroed your salary because they kept sending award notices on with the right salary. HMRC write off a chunk with barely an apology, coming fiercely after the rest. Helpline workers refer to your Civil Partner as 'he' and 'him', even though you only got stung with the 'debt' because of your honesty in declaring your same-sex partner. Months and years unfold. Still fighting, but more and more HMRC errors unfold. Helpline workers - nasty and nice - haven't helped matters, and have promised amendments they didn't make or pass on. One kept you holding on the line 45 minutes crying, at your own expense. I could go on, but it doesn't exactly endear HMRC and their staff to you. And I didn't mention the suicidal thoughts, stress-related illness, depression and recurrent migraines caused by all this. 'Money with your name on it' eh?
This is mild to some of the stories I am continually hearing. Several have moved me to tears. I say this not to get at you or make you feel bad, but to explain why some of us mught be a bit edgy and scratchy at times.
I don't feel depressed now - not usually, anyway - as there is a campaign to win. But it takes up all my 'spare' time. Fortunately my kids are old enough to be self-sufficient and I have a wonderful, supportive family.
No-one thought of this in government, did they, when they inflicted Tax credits on us...
Anyway, glad you are starting to be on 'our' side...
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2008 : 13:29:10
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PFM500
>>I am starting to believe this more and more with the horror stories that i am reading here. I fully accept my limitations, and over the past few weeks, have realised that collectively the regular posters, have a hell of a lot of information at their disposal. <<
Thanks for that. Much respect my Friend.
"Maybe there's some hope after all?" |
Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 20/05/2008 13:33:55 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2008 : 18:34:42
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Thanks, pfm500, for supporting us and recognising that HMRC is not the Oracle for even their own systems. HMRConline gives details of another scathing report regarding omnipotent HMRC:
http://hmrconline.blogspot.com/
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2008 : 18:37:54
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Seems only the 'less polite' address is working, so I'll post the article here:
A report by The Public Accounts Committee has given HMRC a sound kicking wrt its communications with taxpayers.
The report said:
"The department's target to answer at least 90% of telephone callers within a day is not demanding, nor in line with industry benchmarks."
It noted that callers receive incorrect advice when they ring up, and HMRC's website is poorly designed.
"The Department's website is not user friendly and falls short of the standards achieved by tax administrations in other countries.
It should improve accessibility with more effective search engine and navigation tools, including last-modified dates on webpages, and by meeting Cabinet Office guidelines on accessibility for groups such as blind and partially sighted users.
It should not wait for the Direct.gov website to become available in 2011 as the main web channel for citizens before carrying out these improvements."
It also noted, something that I find amazing given that we are now in the 21st century, the fact that HMRC does not readily allow taxpayers to send email.
Anyone would think that HMRC doesn't want to interact with the taxpaying public, or indeed help them!
Other gems include the fact that guidance leaflets produced by HMRC require a reading age higher than the national average, and the fact that HMRC have not estimated the amount of tax overpaid.
Here are the 10 conclusions and recommendations:
1. HMRC answers 72% of telephone calls within 20 seconds, compared with a general industry benchmark of 80%. HMRC should aspire to be an industry leader, aiming to match the average standards achieved by other organisations and then to achieve those of the top-performing organisations industry-wide.
2. HMRC's target to answer at least 90% of telephone callers within a day is not demanding, nor in line with industry benchmarks. To measure its performance and set targets it should introduce recognised industry benchmarks such as the average time to answer and the percentage of calls answered within 20 seconds.
3. Telephone callers sometimes receive incorrect or incomplete advice because they are not referred to staff with appropriate knowledge.
4. HMRC's website is not user friendly and falls short of the standards achieved by tax administrations in other countries.
5. The Income Tax Self Assessment return is the only personal tax form which can
be filed online and the Department offers very restricted facilities for people to contact it by email.
6. Many people have to contact HMRC to obtain information which should be readily available on its website in printed guidance or in letters.
7. Only 10% of HMRC's forms advertise the availability of documents in alternative formats for blind and partially sighted people, special telephone numbers for people who are hard of hearing and translation services.
8. HMRC does not systematically assess the accuracy and completeness of advice given in face-to-face contact at enquiry centres, and these centres do not always tell visitors about alternative formats or translation services.
9. In a sample of commonly used guidance leaflets, half required a reading age higher than the national average. The guidance accompanying HMRC's forms is lengthy and dense, making it difficult to understand.
10. HMRC has estimated that the level of underpayments on Self Assessed Income Tax was £2.8 billion in 2001–02, of which around £330 million may have been due to unintentional mistakes by taxpayers. It has not estimated the amount of tax overpaid. The Department should set a timetable for producing its first estimate of overpayments.
The full report can be accessed here "HM Revenue and Customs: Helping individuals understand and complete their tax forms"
Tax does have to be taxing.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2008 : 19:17:46
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So there you have it pfm500 - and any other HMRC mushroom who happens to be browsing this site. Your employer(s) really are a bunch of incompetent,scheming and lying cnuts, and you my friends are little more than cannon fodder. Are you happy with this situation? Only you know the answer and the solution is in your hands.
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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Sarah
Rank; Captain Gordon
247 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 21:10:30
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Hi Cheeseontoast,
Apologies that you seemed to have got some conflicting advice on the forum and hope you don't think your query got lost in the separate discussion.
Please feel free to post again and keep us up to date with your case. You are welcome to PM me if you wish to discuss your case/circumstances without posting.
Sarah |
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Old overpayment still causing me stress
