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nursercurser
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2008 : 15:38:47
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I got a letter this morning telling me that enquiries are being made into my tax credit claim for last year, apparently on a random basis, but I informed the HMRC that my husband moved back in with me following a separation in December. I have been ill over last four years but self employed so I struggled to keep going and working until finally giving in to this auto immune disorder two weeks ago and putting in an incapacity claim. Up until then, I was living on my wftc. My childcare money was eaten up each month by debt and the fact that the bank were putting so many charges on my account. Charges started from their mistake, they refused to pay a direct debit despite the money being available, and from that charge, they escalated to take £200 per month off me. I nearly lost my house over it.
My question is how much information can the HMRC ask the childminder? Surely under child protection laws they can only give limited information. I really need to know, as I was backed up to the wall at the time and just trying to survive.
It appears that I was underclaiming as I could have claimed disability living allowance and my husband who I was separated from at the time could have claimed a carers allowance as he had to do a lot for me. He actually lost his business over it as he had to be here a lot of the time and the business failed and was dissolved last year. I have also been in legal battle with three large companies over their overcharging me every month. I felt like everyone had free access to fleece my bank account and drive me into the ground.
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2008 : 17:32:15
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Nursercurser
Whenever an enquiry is made into anyones claim details, HMRC first will ask you to provide evidence showing, self employed income, bank statements, can even ask you for credit card bills, household bills, practically anything really. You will be asked to detail how much Childcare Costs you pay out weekly/monthly and also provide Childminders name, Registration Number, Address etc.
Then with the information supplied by yourself, would be cross checked with Childminder Register, the childminders own Self Assessment Tax Details. Or they will contact them direct and request the same answers from their own records about you.
If there are some discrepancies and you are aware of them, my advice would be to come clean sooner rarther than later. They will always catch you out some way or other. This also stops any ill feeling between yourself and your regular childminder, because they would never get to know if you spoke up soon, that you having been telling HMRC you pay her XXX amount when really she gets just XX amount.
   
Splashin |
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nursercurser
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 00:39:41
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| Thanks for reply. Can someone tell me though - what happens if you let them know? Can you be prosecuted. I am terrified. I'm thinking of doing so, and then offering to pay back anything owed at what I can afford, but I do not want to go to prison. I know it was wrong, but basically I got things so mixed up. I should really have claimed other benefits instead and would have ended up better off, but didn't know what I was entitled to and just kept on without letting system know I had been unable to send children to childminders despite their payments as I had no money to pay them. |
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 02:07:15
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Nursecarer
It must be very traumatic for you right now. And it must seem you have no one to turn too, so you can ask them things you need to know. I am sure, there are also many like yourself, who will benefit from reading your post and the suggestions which may follow.
You must also understand that, you may be open to others judging you because of your lack of action. As many will ask how long you would of continued claiming if this enquiry had not been opened. You say you told HMRC about your partner moving back in after a separation. Did you complete new claim form when this happened?
I have been there, seen it, done it, with the bank. I experienced exactly the same situation, which I only cleared by going out to work a second part time job open top of my already full time position. It took me just over six months to work off the £700 arrears on my account, which was created from not having 14p more in my account to pay a direct debit.
Okay so where do you go from here.
I would sit down and work out how many weeks have passed since children last went to childminders.
Then see what date my self employment was noted as ended
With regards to the question about what would happen, if you do let them know. This no one could really answer, we just don't know the extent of the overpayment. When people claim any form of benefit they are not entitled to, they are expected to repay the amount 100%. And I have seen lenience applied when claimants have began to repay the debt before they appear in court.
This does not mean you will end up in court.
If you look at this with a logical approach, you could maybe prevent this happening.
At present HMRC have sent out a letter informing you of the enquiry and have stipulated that this has been done on a random basis. They are not exactly accusing you of anything.
Now in my opinion HMRC have not got the staff to open random enquiry's into tax credit claims. So I would go to say, they have some detail that already shows you as not being compliant. To start getting any childcare costs paid with tax credits you would have to supply a child minder registration number. This registration number follows this person wherever they go, they check up with them, without you knowing, how many hours the children are minded and they may even now have to inform HMRC about any children they had ceased to care for.
So I would say don't dig yourself a deeper hole.
  
Splashin |
Edited by - splashin on 11/04/2008 02:08:15 |
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nursercurser
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 07:54:07
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| I appreciate the judgment and fully expect it. I was in a situation that I hated anyway, but was desperate. In reply to how long I would have continued, I can at least say that I had already ceased claiming this way before the letter came. The upsetting thing is that the illness I had has lasted two years and is finally cleared - reuters disease - and I have just applied to go back to my nursing career. He lost his business while struggling to look after me, and his aging parents (his dad was dying with emphysemia). My illness was triggered by an infection that I caught while working as a staff nurse and stress after I went to assist a lady down the road who was being attacked by a group of youths who had come for a fight with another neighbours kids. They had began knocking her wall down and she shouted at them, there were about 50 kids in the road looking for a fight and about five of them (boys and kids) attacked her. I ran over and got her and her two young kids who had witnessed it back into the house and we barricaded ourselves in until police arrived. The stress had lowered my resistance. My husband tried to catch a steel beam that was about to fall on an employee, thus saving his life, but my husband was badly injured and is now unable to move his shoulder due to an operation that he waiting two years for. Hence - no business. We are not bad people. I was so depressed at losing my career and use of my legs, I stopped opening letters and answering the phone. I was really low. The thing that really worries me now is that finally when things are starting to look better this happens. My childminder never gave me a contract or receipts and I just used to give her cash in her hand each week. Another ofsted registered playgroup didn't give contracts either. It was a holiday group ran at a leisure centre and I paid for this over the phone via debit card, so I don't even have records for when the children did go to minders. I don't want to get in a situation where I am left so poor again, that I have to look for other ways to make up my income to get by. I really was looking forward to getting away from all this and earning my own money again. I am still self employed and have had a great idea on how to improve my business that I intend to continue alongside my nursing work. I really thought life was turning a corner but I can feel the depression coming back and my children have suffered enough. I have to try and be strong for them. |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 07:55:09
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Hi Nursercurser, I am sorry to hear of your plight. But Splashin is right - honesty is the best policy. If you own up to not being quite as honest as you should have been, not only are you doing the 'right thing' and can live better with yourself, but those judging or penalising you will ber less harsh and more forgiving. In my view you may need to go to your GP or to a specialist who has the best knowledge of your disability and see what they would be prepared to put in writing about any mitigating circumstances. This might also help your bank to exercise some restraint when it comes to bank charges, if they are truly aware of your health and situation. I would try speaking to the CAB, as it may be the case that there are some (backdated?) benefits that you could legitimately claim. Because you have child dependents, I really wouldn't expect HMRC to hit you with the full force of their penalties and sanctions, especially given your fragile health. It's really important that you get someone on your side who is able to say, 'yes, these things should have been disclosed, but this is why they weren't, this is what x is going to do to put it right, and here are the reasons why this needs to be a good enough end result'. I am sure there will be someone with some empathy for you, who will advocate on your behalf.
Sometimes it seems as though everything is conspiring against you, and you can guarantee that if someone has fleeced you, someone else has, too. If the legal battles you are having against those companies are costing you money, you might want to think about letting the issues go, so that you have a clear mind to fight current troubles. Perhaps the legal people fighting thoses disputes could be enlisted to help you get over this issue and have a fresh start? If you start making some positive changes in your life, this may give your courage for owning up to past mistakes and evidencing a fresh start. Making mistakes is human, but owning up and moving on from them inspires others to be a bit more forgiving, as there is evidence there of a real wish to start again and put things right.
I think if you do this you will live easier with yourself, find the courage you need to move on, and actually make yourself a better life. Maybe in time you will have some money for yourself?
I think the site 'Consumerrightsnet', or something similar, has something for people overcharged by banks, and they may be able to help you with that aspect of things?
I would do as Splashing says, own up, take the consequences (with others to argue for leniency), accept any help offered, get straight and move on. Good luck.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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nursercurser
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 16:30:12
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| Ok, now its getting worse. It was only for a couple of weeks that my children didn't go to be minded despite the payments, thanks to my bank, but neither of my childminders gave me contracts or receipts! One of them is now saying that they cannot give me the receipts now, it is too late and her records are completed for last year. I may end up being dropped right in it as I am wondering whether they actually disclosed what I paid them, and that must be the descrepancy that has arisen. I saw her a couple of weeks ago and thought she was looking a bit shifty, I just assumed she had been gossiping about me or something! So what happens now? Is it my word against hers? |
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Red Rocket
Rank; Captain Gordon
United Kingdom
223 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 17:08:33
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OK, sit down get out the calendar and make the best job you can of when the children attended the childminders (this is the best you can do at this point). Do you know any of the other parents who use the childminder, if they are prepared to do it, ask them to put in writing that they are aware that your chidren attended that childminder.
My chidminder always gets me to sign a book, this has been happening for above a year and I think is now a legal requirement. If she has neither followed her rules of registration and under declared her tax she is in bother. My main point is this, HMRC will be quite happy to catch two birds with one stone (they can at times be very pragmatic and dare I say it fair) they will not by default automatically beleive the childminder over you.
I would spend the next couple of days putting all you have, dates, illness, lack of reciepts, supporting statements and any supporting evidence etc into a document send it of registered delivery with a request for understanding. Make it clear you are willing to attend a face to face to discuss repayment and resolution to the issue.
It won't go away, and it won't get any better until you come clean. You will learn some very positive lessons from this experiance, ones that will help you avoid even bigger mistakes in the future.
Richard Branson when asked about his business failures such as Virgin Coke: "I welcome success and failure in equal measure, I would not have been the success I have been to date had it not been for the many mistakes i have made in the past"
Good look and keep posting
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Edited by - Red Rocket on 11/04/2008 17:10:57 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 17:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by nursercurser
Ok, now its getting worse. It was only for a couple of weeks that my children didn't go to be minded despite the payments, thanks to my bank, but neither of my childminders gave me contracts or receipts! One of them is now saying that they cannot give me the receipts now, it is too late and her records are completed for last year. I may end up being dropped right in it as I am wondering whether they actually disclosed what I paid them, and that must be the descrepancy that has arisen. I saw her a couple of weeks ago and thought she was looking a bit shifty, I just assumed she had been gossiping about me or something! So what happens now? Is it my word against hers?
Actually, I'm not sure it is worse. In actual fact, if you have only missed a couple of weeks attendance for the children, your 'crime' is hardly in the same league as taking the payments yet never using child care. I think you could plea for some leniency there. As to the childminder, how did you find her? Was she recommended by anyone, or on any kind of register? Did anyone else you know have children placed there? If you have got to know any mothers whose own children were looked after by her, you could consider asking these for some form of confirmation that your own children were also there. They would, I am sure, remember other children that played with theirs. And your own children, if old enough, could probably tell any enquiring adult where they used to go when Mummy was at work, what they did, and who they played with. I am sure these things can be proven.
And how did you pay her? By cash taken out of the bank? By personal cheques? If the latter, there will undoubtedly be a pattern.
I am sure you will think of some way to prove where your children went whilst you worked. If you dropped them off by car, perhaps a neighbour of the childminder will remember the same vehicle stopping at the house each day and young children being dropped off? Or if you walked, surely people would have seen you go by, with children one way, without them the other? You have to be a bit 'Sherlock Holmes' about this. There are always, always ways to back up your own story.
I am sure you will find a good solution. Good luck!
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2008 : 17:18:26
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My message crossed with Red Rocket's, but they are basically both saying the same thing - you can prove this. There's nothing to be lost by being honest. You probably won't like 'dobbing' the childminder in, but at the end of the day, she has a responsibility to be honest, just as we all do.
I am sure you can prove that your children attended, and it will all sort itself out in the long run. Take care.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 01:16:27
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Nurse
I must agree with the others that if you know 'truly' you paid, in good faith, any monies for child minding, even with no actual receipts, there will be some footprint of this transactions. So I wouldn't stress too much over this.
I think it is a good suggestion, that you concentrate on gathering your evidence, because they will, at some point, be requested from you. But, in my opinion I would not try to put this thing together in a week or two, ready to send. After all you may be just digging yourself deeper, by giving the information they need never know.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you should withhold anything from them. I am suggesting you should reply to the dispute letter, really, as soon as possible. Do not let this go by another week.
In this letter, I would give a brief statement, that you have some discrepancies with your tax credit claim and payments made to child minder. On the weeks that these discrepancies occurred, you do not have any record of dates, or the amounts of these. Ask them to suggest how you can you should go about telling them about this and what documents you would need to send them. If this letter they sent you, has a reply deadline date, I will urge you to send this admission at least 2 weeks before the actual last day.
They will then extend the period, biding you precious time to get things in order. Ask them to list all documents which are needed to resolve this matter, as you do not wish to be seen as non compliant, by not submitting any relevant documents.
Now, about getting some type of receipt for what you have paid out to child minder. I can understand the c/m not wanting to print any new receipts, as this would be tedious. But if the reason for you not being able to get the payments made history, is simply because the records for that year have already been completed. You must stand you ground. Do not approach her about the matter face to face, send her a written letter requesting the amount totals for the tax years on your account. Explain this information has been requested by HMRC from you and by law you must supply them with correct details by the deadline date. Also state that should she not provide you with this requested information, you will have to cite her as the reason for you not being able to provide, the documents and details they requested.
Wooahhh Silver!!!!! You have jumped to conclusion that it is you who is being investigated. How do you know the reason they have not contacted you because the child minder has submitted dodgy end of year figures?? Red is also bang on the nail, with the'Two Birds with One Stone' shout.
HMRC & DWP very rarely catch just YOU at it, should they uncover something fishy and look into it a little further. You would be surprised just how wide the capture net becomes, they may get another 10 peoples who they have come across through your case, who also need to be looked at further. This is ongoing.
Any Questions Please Ask.
 
Splashin |
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nursercurser
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 12:43:41
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Yes, I came to that conclusion also, that they HMRC were probably investigating my childminders figures and in calculating how much I pay, and how much she has stated as earned, fdound the discrepancy. Actually, I sent the children to a couple of different childminders over this time. The first one asked me to stop taking my son to her because I was always late! I was too ill to get him there by 9am. My son was tough going at that age, and her grandson and he were always fighting so..........anyhow, she never gave me recipts either. Cash was always paid. Now I think that we are three women who are living in one of the poorest areas in Europe (fact) just trying to survive. I thought it was all over finally, all this bad luck. I am going back to work for the NHS next week and was looking forward to relying on nobody. Now I am worrying that I will either end up in prison or with so much money to pay back that I will need to find another way to bring money in.
Actually you are right about lessons learnt. My ten year old daughter plays football for a local league and the FA made a mistake putting her team up in the semi-finals despite their losing and not earning the place. This morning I found myself having a talk with her about how in her heart, even if they won, it would never feel right, and she would never feel good about it, etc. I am trying to get her to decide for herself to pull out of this particular game.
What are these adults teaching these young kids, my kid, with their impressionable minds? that cheating prospers? to get to the top any way they can even if they haven't earned it? Yep, I do not want this life for my daughter thats for sure! It is not the easy way either. I realised yesterday, that I have no mirrors in the house except a small one in the bathroom for the family. I can't even bear to look at myself, so I am reading your advice and while my scamming mind is still trying to find an easy way out, I really, really want to do the right thing.
I did pay both these childminders for the majority of the time claimed, but when the bank had taken all of my money, then I couldn't pay them, so I took the kids out and didn't tell the HMRC. I had a friend drop the kids most of the time as I was unable to walk back then. My legs swelled up with DVTs and arthritis. I really felt like my life was back, my legs are back to normal, my marriage back on track, kids emerged unscathed and now this. I even had the house blessed last week for a fresh new start.
Has anybody actually done what you suggest, gone cap in hand and admitted where they went wrong? and were they lenient? I worked out what I should have been entitled to back then and I was actually worse off continuing as I was than if I had gone on disability, etc, I didn't want to do this though, I thought I was doing the right thing by avoiding benefits and I just didn't want to give in to the disease. We have a genetic thing in the family, and if it is triggered - well most of my aunts and uncles nver got past 40, and my younger brother is hunchbacked at 35 - I was fighting this - and I won!! Stress, laughably, is one of the biggest triggers for this auto-immune disease and this forum is really helping me avoid that path, you don't realise just how much it is that you do. Thank You. |
Edited by - nursercurser on 12/04/2008 13:05:45 |
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Red Rocket
Rank; Captain Gordon
United Kingdom
223 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 13:30:50
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Hi Nursecusor
For every second you spend looking back you are not looking forward. Your new life is on track its just been tested, you have been through an awful lot, but I very much doubt you will go anyware near a prison.
I have never asked for mercy with HMRC, but if I'm honest I don't think you have any choice. If they catch you which they probably will, it will be too late to appeal to them.
Read through all the posts again. You have to follow the advice you gave your daughter, ok you may get away with it but you will forever live with a foot in the past, with the distinct risk that it could still catch up with you. |
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 22:21:38
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RED
Well that post has just lifted my own spirits. I couldn't have worded it any better myself. Very Positive.
Nurse
I like your look on life. We should be bringing our children up with pride and values that will be with them forever and ongoing in their own children.
I am glad you have seen that there could be another side to the story. Many people who are in this situation, either blow themselves and many others (not intentionally) sky high or say nothing and pay a penalty.
Has anybody actually done what you suggest, gone cap in hand and admitted where they went wrong? and were they lenient?
I know that, when any type of investigation is opened in any type of government office (ie. DWP, CHB, DLA, PAYE, HMRC). The information they request from you is just a click away, from them getting it themselves. It would be a pointless task to trawl through a persons life details, trying to find errors, when their were none to find in the first place. The claimant may have become noticed by the departments through many ways. But usually its either because you have been caught in someone else's net or you have been informed on.
I would not say to go 'cap in hand'. I would admit there are errors but because you are not fully aware of the certain rules etc, could they explain to you what, where and who went wrong. Do not go at this like a bull in a china shop and send in a letter which denies your part in any overpayment, like most do on this site. 'AND SO THEY BLOODY SHOULD' You must paint a picture that, shows you as compliant but misunderstood, with rules etc. to claim tax credits.
I agree that people who join as members on this forum, usually are at the last straw. Most have exhausted every avenue they can and possibly think of. Most at very low points in there lives. Its good to hear some feedback.
keep us updated please
Splashin |
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Childcare Costs
