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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
 Posted - 24/04/2008 : 16:53:08
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I am so mad! I have just received another letter from some customer services woman giving me a list of reasons why they still maintain I should return the money they claim I owe. They are denying the existence of the phone call that proves I stopped my award and contacted them with my new address. They have ignored the fact that this data is missing saying they have sent what they have and without it I have no proof. I don't know what to do. They even had the nerve to say that my failures to follow the correct procedure was not fair on the rest of the people who claim tax credits! I tried to phone the office at 3:30 to speak to this woman but she had gone home for the day. I am absolutely livid. My husband is getting annoyed now though because I am spending so much time raging about it and says maybe we should pay! I feel that as my overpayment was caused because they did not get my renewal form so they say that I owe them all the money back even though I was on a low income paying a full time childminder I should not have to repay it! The fact that this form was not recived means that they are entilted to have it all back! Please advise me as I'm getting really fed up and stressed out.
Thanks
Jacky |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 24/04/2008 : 17:31:41
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Quote this:
Missing calls to the tax credits helpline
(08-01-2007)
Tax credit claimants and their advisers are consistently told that telephone calls to the tax credits helpline are recorded. But since 4 October 2006, letters from another part of HMRC, the Data Protection Unit, have displayed the message ‘Please bear in mind that not all telephone calls to the Tax Credit helpline are recorded’.
LITRG are calling upon HMRC to give claimants the benefit of the doubt in any dispute which turns on the making of a call to the helpline.
The importance of the call records
It is vital for claimants that all calls to the helpline should be recorded, and that the recordings are accessible. The reason is that if something is disputed at a later date, typically an overpayment that may have been caused by HMRC error, the claimant is in a far better position if they can show that they contacted the Tax Credit Office to let them know that something was wrong with their payments, or with their award notice.
Also, when claimants use the helpline to report changes of circumstances or income, it may sometimes be necessary to trace the recording of the call in order to back up what the claimant says. Furthermore, when a claimant has been overpaid because they followed wrong advice given by the helpline, HMRC say they will generally check the call recording to find out exactly what was said.
Disputed calls
Recently LITRG has been consulted by claimants who have telephoned the helpline to tell them of a mistake in their award notice, or have been overpaid because they followed wrong advice given by the helpline, but have been told that there is no record of their calls.
Sometimes they can produce independent evidence that they did call, in the form of BT statements or by means of a telephone number search. But sometimes they cannot; for example, many people on very low incomes use pay-as-you-go mobile phones from which it is impossible to trace calls, or they call the helpline from work.
Many of these calls were in the early days of tax credits when pressures on the helplines were intense and other parts of HMRC were recruited to help out.
Nevertheless the consistent HMRC mantra that all calls were recorded was a comfort in the event of a dispute.
If the Tax Credit Office is unable to trace a call, the best course is for the claimant to write to the Data Protection Unit at HMRC, Data Protection Unit, Room BP 5001, Benton Park View, Long Benton, Newcastle NE98 1ZZ and ask for recordings of all calls made by them to the Tax Credits Helpline. Usually they will be sent CDs containing the recordings, but no details of the date or time of the call. A further request to the DPU might then elicit copies of the ‘household notes’ on the tax credit computer system, which helpline operators are expected to fill in when a claimant has called. Sometimes, however, the operators do not complete the household notes, in which case the claimant has to rely on the recordings of their telephone calls.
Now that the Data Protection Unit of HMRC is saying that not all calls to the helpline are recorded, it is hard to see how the Tax Credit Office of HMRC can continue to maintain the contrary.
We therefore call upon HMRC to:
state precisely which calls to the helpline have been recorded, and which have not for all periods of its existence;
reconsider all cases where the claimant has maintained that they called the helpline, and HMRC have said there is no record of such a call;
in future, give the benefit of the doubt to claimants who say that they have called the helpline, until such time as all calls to the helpline are indeed recorded and household notes are routinely completed following each call.
Meanwhile, what should claimants do?
Most importantly, keep a careful note of all calls to the helpline, the date and time, what was said by whom, and the name of the operator taking the call. That could make all the difference in the event of a dispute.
Contact Name: Robin Williamson (Contact tel: 078 7603 0481, Fax: 020 7235 2562)
http://www.litrg.org.uk/news/index.cfm?id=401
I will ask Paula what we have in writing to say that the benefit of the doubt MUST now be given for all lost/missing calls. I am sure it exists. Have faith. Fight this. In fact, come to Westminster with us - Portcullis House, 3pm, Monday 9th June 2008. We claimants are having our rights violated at every turn! We must protest and stop this.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
 Posted - 24/04/2008 : 20:45:31
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| It's driving me crackers Ali let me tell you but I will not give in!!!! I will take your advice and see how I get on!!! |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 24/04/2008 : 20:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by franners
It's driving me crackers Ali let me tell you but I will not give in!!!! I will take your advice and see how I get on!!!
Well done there Bonny Lass!
They CAN be beaten - some of us have and more of us can & will. 
Hang in there hinny!
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 25/04/2008 : 09:37:35
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Franners, I will email you something which may help you, in which HMRC state they will take lost calls into consideration.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 28/04/2008 : 08:37:32
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| Thank you! I'm putting on my boxing gloves for the next round!! |
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2008 : 15:40:03
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| Have just received a cd conataining information regarding 10 phone calls made to HMRC. There are recordings of 9 of the calls. The only one missing is the one I need to prove my case! However they have enclosed a piece of paper documenting my calls saying that on october 18th 2004 I contacted them to tell them about my change of circumstances and childcare costs. There is no recording so I cannot prove what else I said but I can now prove that a phone call they said did not exist actually does! They also say that on october 18th they sent me a new form (which I have always maintained was at my request). I believe that they sent it to my old address although I gave them my new one. The reason I think this may have happened is that when I got married I phoned them 4 times to change my name and they would say it was done but it wasn't! I am getting ready to write my next letter! They also said in the letter that if calls were missing it was for "technical reasons". Hmmmmmmmmmmm........... |
Edited by - franners on 09/05/2008 15:44:43 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2008 : 09:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by franners
Have just received a cd conataining information regarding 10 phone calls made to HMRC. There are recordings of 9 of the calls. The only one missing is the one I need to prove my case! However they have enclosed a piece of paper documenting my calls saying that on october 18th 2004 I contacted them to tell them about my change of circumstances and childcare costs. There is no recording so I cannot prove what else I said but I can now prove that a phone call they said did not exist actually does!
 That's great! Now all I - or someone like Robert who has a good eye for hunting these things down - need(s) to do is to track down the Tax Credit Consultation Group minutes (I think it was a recent-ish meeting) and find that bit where HMRC agree to take into consideration the fact that calls are missing and to give claimants some benefit of the doubt.
I am a slow worker and my house looks like it has been occupied by 100 people for a month so I may not get around to this as quick as I'd like (the downside of campaigning!), so if anyone fancies stepping in...
Definately in a set of Tax Credit Consultation Group minutes... 
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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TCC Webmaster
Da Purple one
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
129 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2008 : 15:03:00
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This is from the TCCG Minutes for their meeting on 7 March 2007:
Representatives raised the following points
further clarification on the subject of telephone calls which had been diverted during 2003/04 following HMRC’s written response to all representatives of 6th March. Concerns were raised about what was happening in cases where there was no evidence (from either side) of a phone call which a claimant alleges took place, and which is crucial to their argument for disputing their overpayment. HMRC agreed that, in such cases, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, claimants should be given the benefit of the doubt and that guidance would reflect this.
The full minutes can be found here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/minutes070307.htm
I read each meeting minutes, backwards from the latest on 15 January 2008, and there was no further mention of missing calls - so, we have to assume that this is still their policy.
A full index of TCCG Minutes can be found here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/meetings.htm
One interesting point is that the latest published minutes, (for 15 January 2008), don't state when the next meeting is scheduled for. Do we have any contacts on the TCCG that could let us know?
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2008 : 21:39:09
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Nice one, Webbie! I will email you about our TCCG contact (not sure if they are 'out' as a TCC supporter).
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 13/05/2008 : 18:44:59
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| Thanks! I'm composing my next letter now! Lets see if they try to wriggle out of it still. Nothing would suprise me! |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 13/05/2008 : 18:48:32
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'Wiggle out of it'? Lol, Harry Houdini has nothing on HMRC. They can squirn their way out of anything.
Morpheus: … as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up… and neither can we.
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 13/05/2008 : 18:52:36
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| I totally believe it but at least I know for certain that I made that call! Anyway they haven't acted fairly or reasonably so far so I'm not expecting miracles!!! However I will keep on arguing it until I have exhausted every avenue and then some!! |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 13/05/2008 : 22:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by franners
I totally believe it but at least I know for certain that I made that call! Anyway they haven't acted fairly or reasonably so far so I'm not expecting miracles!!! However I will keep on arguing it until I have exhausted every avenue and then some!!
Spoken like a true Geordie!
I'm impressed!!
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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franners
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 09:52:35
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| Letter has gone off recorded delivery with a big red complaint written on it! I have sent copies of my evidence and also to my mp asking that he writes and supports me now that I have this new evidence!! Now we shall wait! |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2008 : 11:17:52
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Well done Franners!
It's a long hard road that you're travelling, but you're not alone as I was when I fought - and won - my case.
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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YIKES WHAT NOW!!
