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Shadowman
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
 Posted - 16/02/2008 : 14:12:36
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Hi, i have just found this website and for me and my family it is like a beacon in a stormy sea. I am presently taking the HMRC to task via my local MP. Over the years we have suffered continuously through the inability of HMRC to manage our Tax Credit Claim. We have gone through the entire mill of mistakes with them and to be frank it was wearing us down. We have finally decided enough is enough and to say we are 'wanting our pound of flesh' is an understatement. They have made error upon error. They have reduced payments or stopped them with no prior warning or justification. They demand over payments but fail to detail the nature of how said occurred. When you push them you get the old chestnut of 'technical issues with your claim'. If you ask for details of said technical issues they tell you they are not in a position to divulge such information to the public. My MP even got a similar response.
And yet an obviously flawed government system and/or method of working practice is in place which like a yard stick is used to brow beat and demoralise law abiding people into submission with the intent of getting them to pay whatever 'the system' says they are due.
For us the fact they can make mistakes, delay appeals, demand information that has already be submitted, reduce live claims with no consideration of the claimants personal circumstances etc etc etc - the list is endless - simply beggars belief.
Had I known in 2003 what I know now, I would never have claimed Tax Credits. I would rather have been on a low income without all this stress. But then hindsight is an exact science.
Anyway I will detail some of my personal information when I get more time. Just wanted to say 'HI' to everyone on here.
regards
Shadowman
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Shadowman
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2008 : 17:24:30
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I was going to post a long story of the entire debacle that has plagued our joint tax credit award since 2003 but I will do that later. However could someone answer a question please? In November 2007 we received an annual declaration form for the period 2004-2005. We have already submitted such a declaration form during the year concerned, as well as repeated versions during the subsequent years of 'technical issues' with our account. The TCO continue to cite technical issues with our claim. A few days later they sent a letter advising us our current payments were to be reduced by £140 as recovery of an overpayment. We subsequently went to our MP who wrote in late November 2007 to the TCO asking why we were being required to submit this form having already provided this information, as well asking for clarification on alleged overpayment's. They did not respond until 28th January 2008. They did the usual 'we are sorry' routine and dismissed our questions by simply not answering them. They did however state we are due overpayment's for 2003-2004 as well as 2004-2005. They cite duplicate payments /non entitlement - another story- and accept technical issues as the root cause of problems over the past 4 years. They refused to detail or explain the nature of the 'technical issues'
Well while we are in the throws of responding to this letter via our MP, and asking for all information under the DPA 1988 before we detail our response, my wife and i received letters today from the TCO stating that our 2006 - 2007 and 2007 -2008 tax credit claims have been terminated. NO reason was given. We phoned them today and all they could tell us was we had not completed annual declaration forms! Well, for those two years we have documented complaints with the TCO as to why they never sent annual declaration packs to us, along with their apologizes for same. So to say we are pissed is an under statement.
So can they do this when you are presently in the throws of a complaint regarding the ENTIRE mishandling of your account by the TCO? |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2008 : 20:01:31
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I notice you mention 'all they could tell us was we had not completed annual declaration forms!'. Do read the 'important news' here, as some action is being planned on this very subject:
http://www.taxcreditoverpayment.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/News_TCC_Update.html
All the TCO do is mishandle - they are a law unto themselves, because they have no accountability. But stick with us, take heart, and win this. It can be done, believe me.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is…the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
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familytaxcredit
Forum Admin
371 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2008 : 00:18:36
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Unfortunately hmrc and the government will go for 'easy cases' they (hmrc and the government) work like spivs, they will play the percentages game. It is not rocket science, they will attempt at all costs to sway statistics. 'Bend it like brown' scenario. They will swear black is white. Their stats will make sense because they 'organise statistics' any way they want' Unfortunately for the spivs, the plebs are ever more increasing in size. When this happens a bookie is faced with a huge dilema, he/she can close betting, or open a new book. Normally a bookie will close the book, but on this occaision the government cannot close the book, all they are striving to do is delay the race. But no matter whom wins the delayed race the government cannot win.
They will of course eventually need to make excuses.
But we are not on soft ground/s. |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
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Sarah
Rank; Captain Gordon
247 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2008 : 12:34:21
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Ali,
I've followed ths link and posted a response - I think Lisa is referring to an enquiry but perhaps Splash can confirm the code. I've pasted information below on what we have so far on enquiries.
Enquiries
• Enquiries arise following discrepancies, e.g. between tax credit and child benefit claims or self assessment returns etc. An uncorroborated number of random enquiries are carried out each year. Claimants are only told why there an enquiry was conducted following completion of the enquiry.
• Tax Management Act allows for enquiries.
• HMRC guidance states ‘you can ask us to stop our check at any time. If we think we should continue with the check we will ask an independent Appeals Tribunal to decide what should happen. The Tribunal will tell us to stop unless we can convince them that we should be allowed to carry on.’ Downside is you may be presumed to have something to hide by trying to avoid the enquiry (from insider).
• Whilst conducting an enquiry HMRC can request copy bank statements, credit card statements, utility bills, etc.
• For any information you do not have speak to HMRC they may be able to work with you to get the information/answer the question they were really asking.
• Claimants should check if the request for information is formal or informal? Formal is enforceable.
• If you need details of phone conversations with HMRC need to do a SARN (subject access request notification) and send holding letter on enquiry – may be useful to do anyway.
• Requests for information during enquiries potentially breach Article 8 of the Human Rights Act but the get out for HMRC may be ‘protection of the economy’ - need more time to seek legal opinion.
• If at the end of the enquiry HMRC show you have not been compliant they can impose penalties, but how co-operative you are during the enquiry process can reduce the amount of penalty imposed.
Insider Recommendation
• Be honest with them and give them everything they want. They will most likely have all the information anyway and the process is more about how honest you are, whether any discrepancy was deliberate or accidental. HMRC’s thinking is that if you provide the information willingly you are honest, if you try to avoid it you’re not.
• If there is nothing the claimant has done to be classed as non compliant then they need not worry.
SM/PJ Recommendation
1. Send letter of complaint over original request relating to 2001
2. Request copy of relevant section of legislation allowing HMRC to request the information/conduct the enquiry
3. Letter of complaint to Information Commissioner
4. Write to HMRC stating you will not progress the enquiry/provide evidence until you have heard back on points 2 and 3
5. SARN request
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2008 : 08:13:09
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Here's what Ken Frost thinks of the omnipotent, unaccountable HMRC's powers:
Tuesday, 19 February 2008
Big Brother - HMRC's Licence To Bug
Orwell's view of the totalitarian state that monitors our every spoken word, written word and action came closer to reality last week, when our good old friends in HMRC were granted the right to bug our phones and intercept our email if they suspect us of tax fraud.
HMRC, on top of its power to arrest people, can now intercept phone calls, emails and letters, as well as bug residential premises and private vehicles.
HMRC see nothing to be alarmed about, as they calmly state:
"Customs officers have always had these powers because of their criminal investigations into drugs and guns.
Now they will be granted across the board. We could use it purely in tax matters. Tax offences are quite often combined with other forms of criminality."
HMRC promise that all surveillance will be conducted in compliance with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and the Wilson Doctrine (which we know was brazenly flouted with the revelations that police have been bugging protected conversations between suspects, MPs and their lawyers).
HMRC will also be subject to checks by the Office of Surveillance Commissioners and the Interception of Communication Commissioners Office.
Therefore, why should we be worried by this development?
Here's why you need to be very worried:
1 The Wilson doctrine, as already stated, has been breached.
2 HMRC will not need to seek external authorisation for any of its surveillance activities.
3 HMRC has not drawn up any code of conduct for how it will use its "exciting" new powers.
4 In 2005 explicit assurances were given that the merger of the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise would not give rise to an alignment of powers. These assurances have been broken.
5 HMRC will act as judge, jury and executioner. Due process, as required for other aspects of law enforcement by other organs of the state, will not be followed.
6 HMRC is massively incompetent (eg datagate, tax credits etc), they cannot be trusted with such powers.
7 There is no evidence to support the need for extending HMRC's already excessive powers.
Am I alone in finding that thought of HMRC being given such powers to be more than a little worrying?
How can we trust the government, or HMRC, not to misuse these new powers?
I would note that they can bug anyone, on the slightest suspicion of tax fraud/evasion. HMRC will be the judge as to what constitutes reasonable "suspicion".
Given that, under Gordon Brown, HMRC is being used as a tool of the state to impose its political will (eg the erosion of the right to avoid paying tax) there is a very clear and present danger to our liberties with this extension of HMRC powers.
Harry Travers, partner at law firm BCL Burton Copeland, is far from impressed. He is quoted on AccountingWeb:
"It seems clear to me that HMRC used the merger to push for greater powers.
There is no evidence that bugging powers are needed in relation to direct tax fraud, and HMRC did not even attempt to provide any."
I would also remind you that some Customs and Excise prosecutions have collapsed in recent years, due to the abuse by officers of their powers.
The prosecution for Operation Venison, which led to accusations of VAT fraud for five Manchester businessmen three years ago, fell through due to "muddle, incompetence and lack of frankness" said Mr Justice Crane.
Can HMRC be trusted not to misuse these powers?
No, they can't!
Every email, conversation and phone call by anyone can now be listened to by HMRC (ie the state).
This is wrong.
It is now necessary for the public to take a stand against the state, and to ensure that these powers are revoked at the earliest opportunity.
In the short term I recommend that people equip themselves with anti bugging devices, and ensure that their emails are encrypted.
Tax does have to be taxing.
HMRC Is ****e (www.hmrcis****e.com) is brought to you by www.kenfrost.com "The Living Brand"
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is…the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
Posted - 24/02/2008 : 09:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowman
I was going to post a long story of the entire debacle that has plagued our joint tax credit award since 2003 but I will do that later. However could someone answer a question please? In November 2007 we received an annual declaration form for the period 2004-2005. We have already submitted such a declaration form during the year concerned, as well as repeated versions during the subsequent years of 'technical issues' with our account. The TCO continue to cite technical issues with our claim. A few days later they sent a letter advising us our current payments were to be reduced by £140 as recovery of an overpayment. We subsequently went to our MP who wrote in late November 2007 to the TCO asking why we were being required to submit this form having already provided this information, as well asking for clarification on alleged overpayment's. They did not respond until 28th January 2008. They did the usual 'we are sorry' routine and dismissed our questions by simply not answering them. They did however state we are due overpayment's for 2003-2004 as well as 2004-2005. They cite duplicate payments /non entitlement - another story- and accept technical issues as the root cause of problems over the past 4 years. They refused to detail or explain the nature of the 'technical issues'
Well while we are in the throws of responding to this letter via our MP, and asking for all information under the DPA 1988 before we detail our response, my wife and i received letters today from the TCO stating that our 2006 - 2007 and 2007 -2008 tax credit claims have been terminated. NO reason was given. We phoned them today and all they could tell us was we had not completed annual declaration forms! Well, for those two years we have documented complaints with the TCO as to why they never sent annual declaration packs to us, along with their apologises for same. So to say we are pissed is an under statement.
So can they do this when you are presently in the throws of a complaint regarding the ENTIRE mishandling of your account by the TCO?
ShadowMan
You have done the best thing by request SAR documents. You say your claim has been a blunder of errors from day 1. Well your overpayment most probably happened in 200-2004 tax year. Which were only reworked last year around this time after being stockpiled.
The reason they were stockpiled in the first place was because there are,where and have been errors regarding details in these first two years that HMRC know about. All these claims were stockpiled as they were told no action was to be taken on any of theses faults in case it cause even more errors in the system further on down the line, until they had guidance. Thats why most people didn't get to know about overpayment's years and years after.
I think your claim was reworked HMRC (technical terms), when say reworked I mean, dust it down and send it out anyway even though they know there is a fault on the case that has never been resolved. I have seen numerous household notes from different peoples SAR documents which clearly states that these claim are being stockpiled and not to be reworked. So HMRC send you a letter about overpayment's and you respond with a dispute. The O/P team get your dispute, check your claim, see there is a fault, do not rework or correct this fault, or seek further help to resolve the matter prior to responding to your dispute, which means they still send you out they same bill, for a similar am,amount, when knowing that you really do not owe that money as your claim has stockpiled faults that can';t be worked.
Await SAR Doc's with baited breath.
  
Splashin |
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Shadowman
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2008 : 21:09:49
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Sorry, not been around the last week or so.
Thanks Splashin that puts it into context. Year in year out we have had 'recovery payments' recovered from our monthly payments with no explanation as to why. When we phone and eventually write a letter of complaint asking to the nature of these 'overpayment's' we eventually get the technical issues response and the old 'we are working on it'. However they will not tell us what the issue is.
We never received our 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 annual declaration packs despite phoning and phoning and ............... Broken promise after broken promise of resolving the issue but to no avail. We wrote letters of complaint in 2006 and 2007 asking why we never received our declaration packs and award letters. They respond some 10 months later with a curt apology, a small monetary sum for stress, phone calls etc and provide a manual award letter. For 2006-2007 this meant we paid out over £1000 in school meals for our children when they should have been entitled to free ones while it was 'sorted' out. This was repeated in 2007 - 2008. We have completed numerous 2005 -2006 annual declaration forms which turn up throughout the year 2007. They reduced our monthly payments in November 2007 due to an overpayment. No breakdown or explanation was given as to what, why or even how. This prompted MP involvement. They responded saying there are overpayment's from 2003-2004 & 2004-2005 but do not justify or even explain how these occurred. They refuse to discuss/divulge the technical issues inherent in our claim.
As I stated earlier they terminated our claim in January 2008, notifying us in writing a few weeks ago. Since posting on here I have phoned and spoken to TCO help line. I was told that our claim had been passed to some department who deal with elevated complaints ie via MP's etc and that this department could find no annual declaration form for 2005-2006 and as a result 'corrective action' had been taken to terminate our claim as of April 2006. SO now they are looking for repayment of tax credits paid out to us for 2006-2007 & 2007-2008 periods. When I mentioned our letters of complaint etc the person on the phone went mute. They could not help anymore. So effectively as I sit typing this our tax credit claim has been shut down. I am wondering if this is linked into the technical issues that have plagued the claim and this is an easy cop out for the TCO to simply terminate the claim, as opposed to resolving it? We have been sent a new application claim pack but I am not going to fill it in yet. I see no reason why the existing one was closed and as such we are going to demand why this has occurred and for what reason. |
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician
690 Posts |
Posted - 27/02/2008 : 23:48:53
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I'm not a particular fan, but Michael Winner, Richard and Judy have had BIG Dealings with hmrc of late (though probably not tax credit related -;) anyhow they managed to see hmrc off...but it costs them loads of dosh in tax solicitors/accountants etc..So how do we do it with limited means?
I'm not putting these people down, good luck to them, but without funds they could not have won |
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Shadowman
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 19/03/2008 : 00:31:45
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| Sorry, not been around for a few weeks. Okay we got a demand for the 2004 -2005 year. Much less than they had been telling our MP we owed, but no indication as to what it related too. My request for info under DPA materialised today with the delivery of one huge jiffy bag of screen shots etc. Oh the joys! Phoned TC today regarding the demand and was told they had terminated our claim as they final admitted they, yes they, had technical issues which meant they could not finalise our claim. I asked the upshot of this to which the person replied we - my wife and I - were blameless and the tax credits have effectively written off/terminated the 2006-2007 & 2007 - 2008 years. Notified MP who is going to write for this to be confirmed to him and query the latest demand. So basically keep asking people, demand information and simple do not give up. Must go as need my bed, been a long day. |
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Shadowman
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 23/03/2008 : 18:20:05
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| Well I have been looking through the SARN printouts etc. All I can say to ANYONE having issues is follow the advice from this site and request it from the start. Do not waste time going around in circles with HMRC. Get the info and then approach them. For example my SARN data shows clearly the amounts they have recovered each year but there is no reference to why it was being recovered in the first place. There is no information as to what the recovered amounts went towards. In addition all those annual declarations that they sent out in retrospect which we filled in and sent back, only for them to say we never did return are, wait for it, clearly evident in the SARN. All nicely stamped as received with HMRC date stamps. So basically I am going to collate the data and start asking some awkward questions. I have been peeved at being accused of not submitting info, notifying them of changes etc and then having my claim stopped, when all along they had all the info they said they never received. |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 23/03/2008 : 23:22:02
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Hi Shadowman
>>In addition all those annual declarations that they sent out in retrospect which we filled in and sent back, only for them to say we never did return are, wait for it, clearly evident in the SARN. All nicely stamped as received with HMRC date stamps. <<
Let your MP, Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, Jane Kennedy AND the media know about this!
Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother? |
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Oh the joys of the Tax Credit System - NOT!
