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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 19/12/2007 : 17:31:51
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Certainly a good start! I like your points about the threats and coercion, which are bullying and harrassment, whichever way you look at it.
By all means cite this Forum - it is, after all, in 'the public domain'. Anything I post here you are welcome to use if it is in any way helpful. Good luck!
Machine god: WHAT IF YOU FAIL?
Neo: I won't
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 19/12/2007 : 19:14:07
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| Thanks Ali,I was going to use the term bullying but I didn't want to sound to aggressive.After all I didn't want to lower myself to their level. |
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
 Posted - 20/12/2007 : 15:50:39
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| Hi everyone,I've now edited my previous letter posted 2 posts ago.And I'm now going to post it,to my MP.A merry Christmas to everyone. |
Edited by - ENIGMA on 21/12/2007 11:48:24 |
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2008 : 19:59:33
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I received the dispute form and sent it of new years eve,with the following letter;
To whom it may concern,
I believe this overpayment should not be paid back,as it was made due to absolutely no fault of my own but entirely the fault of the Inland Revenue.
When I initially made the claim in March 04,I phoned the Child Credit helpline.To ask what to put in the boxes for earnings for year ending 5th April 03,as I hadn't worked that year.I was told to put NIL (If you check your voice recordings,this will be confirmed).This was then posted.
My second point is,the Renewal notice I was sent on the 15th June 04 (which date sent confirmed in a recent phone conversation with you) was returned completed within 2 weeks of receiving,I believe but according to your records was received on 18th August 04. I think the date 18th August 04 was the date it was processed.So I believe it was in the Revenues office for several weeks after I sent it,before processing.
If the Revenue had sent the Renewal notice a lot sooner,the overpayment would not have been made,so its entirely their fault.
My third point is, I inquired about our current working tax credit award and what years it was based on.I was told it was based on the previous tax year,as we had been unemployed for the whole year,we were receiving maximum award.So I replied "will we be asked for an overpayment again?" The reply was "no,as the rules now have changed." Just on that point alone,it proves the system back in 2004 was flawed.Or else why have they changed it now?
This benefit system was set up to help families on low income and not to cause stress and hardship,which indeed these overpayment demands are now achieving.
I have already written to my M.P. about this whole shambles and if this nonsense does not end here,I shall fight this every step of the way.Including contacting my local and National newspapers.
Yours faithfully,
I received the reply yesterday and will post it on this site as soon as I have worked out how to do it.I have already scanned it and got it on file on my computer.Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction?So I can post it on this site.
I have received a letter 10 days ago from my MP in response to my letter,which I posted on this thread previously.Which basically thanked me for bringing my concerns to his attention and he assured me he would be writing to the acting chairman of HMRC and would contact me as soon as he had received a reply.
Practically anything can be achieved in this world,if you have the time and determination. |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2008 : 20:15:56
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Well done Enigma.
You're getting the hang of the thing now.
Sammy or Resurgam are the two most likely candidates to advise you on how to post your scanned documents.
(Sorry lads; I'm sure you'd drop me in it just the same!)
Geordie: "Yon lass's gorra fyece lyke a bagga spanners!"
English: "That lady's face is rather unnatractive" |
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2008 : 15:26:58
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Well I couldn't suss out how to post copies of documents so will just type out the letter.
I,m going to concede on this one and pay them the money unless anyone can give me good reasons for not doing so.
This is the letter from HMCR in response to my previous posted dispute letter:
Tax credits overpayment 2003-2004
Thank you for your letter received on 03 January 2008 asking us to look at your overpayment for the above tax year and to consider whether you should have to pay it back.
Tax credits are based on your family circumstances and income.If either changes the amount you are entitled to and your tax credit payments may change.Every tax credits award notice you receive asks you to tell us about changes in your circumstances when they occur so that we can keep your payments in line with what is due to you.We also ask you to check the personal information on your award notice and tell us if anything is wrong or missing.
We have look at why the overpayment happened and found that we have not made a mistake.Your overpayment happened for the following reason.
You applied for tax credits and told us that your income for the tax year 2001-2002 was 0.00pound.The notes that came with your application form show that tax credit awards are calculated on previous year income initially.you must inform us if your up to date income is different as this can affect your entitlement.
On 17 June 2004 when your application process was complete,we issued a tax credit payment for the tax year 2003-2004,based on your household income of 0.00 pound.We issued an award notice to you on 18June 2004,which told you that the income we used was 0.00 pound.It also told you to tell us if your income rose above 7560 pound.
On 21 August 2004 you told us that your income for the tax year 2003-2004 had gone up from 0.00 to 17408 pound.We sent you an amended award notice on 23 August 2004 which showed how this change reduced the amount of tax credits you were entitled to receive.
Because your income went up and you received tax credits to which you were not entitled,so you will have to pay the money back.
I am sorry if you are disappointed by my reply.There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment,but if you have further information that you have not previously provided,please send it to us and we will look at it.
Practically anything can be achieved in this world,if you have the time and determination. |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 19/01/2008 : 08:47:42
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Hi, Enigma. You wrote: “I,m going to concede on this one and pay them the money unless anyone can give me good reasons for not doing so. ”
Where do I start?
Well, if you are entirely happy with what HMRC has said, go right ahead, get your cheque book and pay off your ‘owings’. HMRC will then conclude that, confronted with evidence from them that you told them your earnings for 2001-2002 were zero, you realized you had been caught out and gave in gracefully. It has been worth their chasing you, and reinforces for them that it is well worth chasing the 1000s of others who have also – according to their records – declared nil incomes and pocketed money they weren’t entitled to, as they too are likely to say ‘fair cop’ and settle up.
I’d be very surprised, however, if you really had declared your income as zero for that year, as it has been a very, very common HMRC error. Still, there is always a first.
Sammy didn’t declare his income as zero, neither did his wife. Neither did I – not once, let alone the three times (at least) in which HMRC set my earnings as zero. A 35-37 hour week earning me £0.00 or £0.01! Very clearly my fault … I don’t think!
Enigma, what I am saying is that if you gave HMRC your correct annual income details as you believed them to be, you were totally compliant. Why should you, or I, or we, accept sub-standard service and then have to pay for it? If you took your car to the garage with a flat tyre, would you expect to be billed for a new engine? I think not! Yet we let HMRC get away with all manner of errors and shoddy behaviour as though it is perfectly okay. It isn’t.
I think what you might be saying is that you gave your correct salary, but HMRC got it wrong, and that you can see that they are intent on blaming you for it, and that you are somewhat fed up at their answer, can’t see yourself winning this, and have better things to do than waste any more time fighting what seems like a losing battle?
I hear so many people say this – before they jump back to their feet and say, ‘I am not going to be bullied by HMRC and made a scapegoat for their mistakes!’
Last night I got an email from someone who has finally won her case. It was thrown out time and again by HMRC, and in the end she wrote to her MP insisting that they took the matter straight to Jane Kennedy. The MP wrote to Jane Kennedy, and she has now been told that she doesn’t owe £7000 after all – but the slate has been wiped clean.
Enigma, what’s your tag line, “Practically anything can be achieved in this world,if you have the time and determination” all about? I can certainly understand lack of time – my biggest enemy (not HMRC) - but what’s happened to your determination?
As I was explaining yesterday to a colleague who had another turn-down letter from HMRC, if we capitulate, all we are doing (sadly) is tipping the cost/benefit scales to HMRC and the government of ‘chase’ against ‘write off’ towards ‘chase’. You won’t show up on any statistics as a disgruntled claimant forced, at the end of their tether, to repay. You’ll be counted as a ‘that’s alright then – Happy Shopper’, whereas if you fight on, you will be effectively voting for system reform, with your complaints, disputes and challenges to the system.
I once thought, ‘What’s the point?’ At that stage I apparently owed £6500. But I can’t stand bullies, and decided to fight back. Currently I ‘owe’ £723 with £560 waiting (apparently) to be paid to me, plus £12 underpaid, plus £100 ‘compensation’ (which they are meant to be sending me made out to the Tax Credit Casualties – let’s just see if they do!!). Two quick letters knocked £1300 off the bill of someone I know!
Admittedly, you might have a fight on your hands if, in minute print somewhere on your Award notice, that zero salary shows. That’s why the £723 is still in dispute. BUT I also got sent that ‘tell us when your income exceeds ‘7560 pound’ letter, and I was told by VT of the Low Incomes Tax Reform Group that she has seen other examples of this same ‘system error’ letter. The Adjudicator asked HMRC what it was all about. They didn’t even know!!! They shrugged their shoulders and still billed me for £723. But I am going to the Ombudsman. And after that, if I need to, it goes to a solicitor. I did not help to vote Labour in (I have learned the error of my foolish ways) so that I could be financially stitched-up, and I am not going to let HMRC and Brown trample all over me – nor anyone else I know of in this situation, if I can help it.
I do think your case needs more research and disputing. Please be aware that HMRC can make assumptions that the bad information they worked to, through errors of their own making, was either given by us or visible to us, when evidence shows that commonly it isn’t. I had my first £2500-odd written off because although HMRC swore blind that the zero salary they had used to calculate my Award was clearly visible – for me to check on my Award notices – it damn well wasn’t! They had lied. They do lie.
And we know what your friend Martin has to say about liars and abusers of power….
If you are still determined to throw in the towel, will you please do one more thing first?
Please be our ‘guinea pig’ and send them an ICHOR Trust letter first…
If that fails, perhaps then you can write your cheque.
Something tells me that it won’t.
Please don’t let the bully boys beat you!
Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
(typo corrected on amount written off)
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Edited by - Ali M-W on 19/01/2008 08:51:01 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 19/01/2008 : 09:06:49
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I have add a go at an ICHOR Trust-style letter for you, Enigma, if you are still in a 'pay it up and be done with HMRC' frame of mind. It is just a play-around, and doubtless Martin will be able to advise on the necesary changes:
As I am the trustee of the ICHOR Trust I am, therefore, entitled to request from HMRC to be show the authority they rely on to make this statement based on falsehood and hold me accountable for it:
And I quote, "You applied for tax credits and told us that your income for the tax year 2001-2002 was 0.00 pounds… we issued a tax credit payment for the tax year 2003-2004, based on your household income of 0.00 pounds… There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment”.
The reason I have this authority is because it is a criminal offence to attempt defeat a trust and as long as you are honest people you are beneficiaries of the ICHOR Trust. Thus, on behalf of my beneficiaries I am entitled to contract for as much as I wish for going without my right to see the authorities relied on by HMRC, or indeed anyone else, to affect my beneficiaries' right to see the authority they rely on. The authority I shall contract for going without being shown by HMRC is the authority they rely on for making their statement "You applied for tax credits and told us that your income for the tax year 2001-2002 was 0.00 pounds… we issued a tax credit payment for the tax year 2003-2004, based on your household income of 0.00 pounds… There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment”. I am entitled to be shown by HMRC that authority for taking away your Common Law right to a fair hearing based on evidence produced before a Court of Law according to Metropolitan Asylum District v Hill 1881.
Any body (natural or corporate) that has an honest belief in its authority to take away your property, your Common Law rights being your property, must be able to show it to any person asking to see it.
When HMRC fails to admit that it cannot show words in an Act of Parliament, because it relies on the fiction of CROWN PRIVILEDGE, then we will know they are damaging your property according to The Terrorist Act 2001, bearing in mind that your rights are your property. Finally, when HMRC fail to show us WITHIN 40 DAYS the words in an Act of Parliament that state, "You applied for tax credits and told us that your income for the tax year 2001-2002 was 0.00 pounds… we issued a tax credit payment for the tax year 2003-2004, based on your household income of 0.00 pounds… There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment” then they will owe you more money than their assets are worth and you will know you have the right to refuse to answer their questions until they have answered your question protected by a £900 thousand million million fee for CONTINUING to go without your right to be shown by them the authority they rely on to claim, "You applied for tax credits and told us that your income for the tax year 2001-2002 was 0.00 pounds… we issued a tax credit payment for the tax year 2003-2004, based on your household income of 0.00 pounds… There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment”.
With thanks to Martin Mitchell trustee of the ICHOR Trust (07943932522).
Ensuring the corrupt are seen as terrorists in order for the hosts of their abuse to inherit the Earth by recaption in ways beyond the comprehension of bent minds.
HONESTY IS OUR POLICY
It might be that you don't put the whole quote in (I kept in the bit about your saying you had a zero income, as that clearly won't be true, but it might not be needed). Instead, it might just be 'There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment'. But I am sure Martin will advise you if you want to go down this route.
Good luck! Power belongs with the people, not the elite few.
Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
(fonts changed) |
Edited by - Ali M-W on 19/01/2008 09:09:05 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 19/01/2008 : 09:11:13
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The more I think about it, I think you just need the bit saying 'There is no right of appeal against the recovery of an overpayment', although I was tempted to bring out the lie.
Whether you become our ICHOR guinea-pig or not, I do urge you not to throw in the towel but to fight this, Enigma.
Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 19/01/2008 : 14:25:28
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Hi Ali,I'm very impressed with how much work you have put in.When I filled out the forms in around March 04,I remember I was surprised why I had to give my earnings for 2001-2002.So I rang up the helpline and they definitely told me to write NIL in the boxes as I hadn't worked for that year.
I have to take their word that it was written in the notes that I should give my current earnings if different.As how can I prove this?
The second point they have me on is that I didn't inform then when I received my award notice,that my income was over 7560 pound for 2003-2004.
I will now try and pm you or send you an email to explain other things.
Practically anything can be achieved in this world,if you have the time and determination. |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 11:05:22
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Okay, Enigma - so when you completed your 2001-2 declaration, you were told by a Helpline Advisor to put NIL in the earned income box? So, basically, you were following so-called expert advice? That, to me, means you were taking instruction and were not at fault. You had a reasonable belief in the 'Helpline' Advisor to know what they were doing.
Try to remember as much as you can about the call. What was going on in your life at the time? Approximately what time of year was it? What was the weather like? Was it linked to anything else you can remember better? Did you write anything down about it? Did you rinf as you were completing the form?
You will need all your data, forms and call recordings. From the completed declaration you will get an approximare date of your call. Insist they trace this for you. Insist that they told you what to write based on your honest description of your circumstances. Insist that if they can't trace the call it doesn't prove you weren't right, but to the contrary, in usual British law, backs up 'innocent until proven guilty'.
Do fight on!
Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 11:08:18
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Just keep fighting on until they admit you did nothing wrong and reasonably believed all was correct and write off your overpayment, or until Ministers see sense - or our legal action is won - and the rules get changed. Don't let them beat you.
Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
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chrisp
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
98 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 12:23:48
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I had a very similar overpayment to yours by the sound of it, and got caught up in their Known software faults. My wife was working but I am on Disability Benefits. October 2006 out of the blue we got £4000 off them, Never had anything before so I rang them twice to check it was intended for us and was told there was no mistake.
Fast forward to Feb 2007 and I tell them my wife has an £800 PA pay rise. This is followed days later for a demand to pay the £4000 back.
After over 170 phone calls and filling in numerous forms, appeal etc I got to speak to a guy who belonged to the human race. He told me what had happened, apparently in October someone at HMRC was ammending my records to show the Disability Benefit as the taxable situation of it had changed. The software fault then zeroed my wife's income all on it's own. It is a know fault and apparently requires the manual correction of my wife's income, ie someone has to put it back in but they didn't.
Now the confusing part and the grounds I won on, their system shows you as having a zero income, but all the award notices and letters they send out to you has the income details you have given them. You get your award notice, check it, it shows the award and all the income details, hours worked etc. that you advised them. So how on this earth are you supposed to know that on their flickering screens they have a totally different set of data.
This obviously leads them to demand the overpayment back as they believe the information they have on screen is actually what is printed on your award notice. Quite a reasonable assumption. Equally as reasonable is the fact that you have correpondance from them that is showing your correct income.
What you have to do is get someone interested enough to take a look at your Award paperwork and compare it to their on screen record. It is then obvious where the fault lies and it ain't with you.
Interestingly I won in June and to date have never had another Award notice from them since showing my current and amended situation, apparently there is another software fault that re enters the overpayment when they print the document despite them trying to amend it to show we owe them nothing.
This is also another known software fault, to date I have only been told they are suspending recovery action and remitting the overpayment, my MP has had this in writing but they cannot write to me, you guessed it, due to a software fault.
You basically need to understand their system and it's faults to have any idea were they went wrong and then keep writing or calling until you strike it lucky and get someone prepared to listen to you with an open mind instead of the usual brain nummed clone whos only concern is the end of their shift.
Keep at it, this system and it's faults are not your making, why should you suffer for it, you are actually paying for the grief they are giving you in an indirect way. Don't accept it. |
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 16:41:44
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Unfortunately Chrisp my overpayment had nothing to do with "software faults"but thanks for your post.
I've sent you an email, Ali.
Practically anything can be achieved in this world,if you have the time and determination. |
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Sarah
Rank; Captain Gordon
247 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 21:19:31
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Hi Enigma,
If your overpayment came about because you followed advice from HMRC then the overpayment is their fault not yours. So why should you have to pay back money you accepted in good faith? Get copies of your phone records from HMRC if you haven't already and fight them! We're all here to help and support you through it. Good luck. |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 21/01/2008 : 08:17:30
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Enigma, please don't throw in the towel! To pay this back is just to give in to HMRC's 'we are always right' stance, and they do need to know that claimants are not perfect, just reasonable, average, everyday folk with innumerable pressures on their lives. Claiming Tax Credits shouldn't be like joining some weird sect like the Moonies, where we sign over our souls and have to behave in prescribed ways which we have no control over. So what if, for instance, someone misses a zero put down as salary, for a multitude of good reasons? I hope you will reconsider. From your email I see nothing to suggest you won't win your case, and you have only ever been compliant and done as instructed by HMRC, in line with the things you believed you needed to do. Nowhere else in life would we accept what we all accept from HMRC. Please can we regroup and we'd happily support you to challenge the 'answer' sent to you by HMRC.
Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
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ENIGMA
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
41 Posts |
Posted - 21/01/2008 : 11:14:37
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Hi Ali,
I know It's a good point about the HMRC telling me to put down NIL,initially but they informed me in the dispute reply,it was in the notes you must inform us if your up to date income is different as this can affect your entitlement.
I can't get over the fact,I left it a couple of months before I informed the HMRC my income had gone up,when they had requested I should tell them,on the final award notice.So isn't this my fault?
I admire you for your perseverance and I was ready to continue fighting,until I spoke to my wife.Who said"just pay it" (we are paying half each).
Now I have explained to her what you have said,and she's said with reluctance "it's up to you".
So,now I'm ready to continue fighting with your support.
What is my next step,please?
Practically anything can be achieved in this world,if you have the time and determination. |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 21/01/2008 : 12:22:46
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Enigma
Even if this is your fault & you do have to pay, put the money in a savings account NOW & by the time you get to the end of the dispute/appeals process it will be YOU who has earned interest on YOUR money - not HMRC!!
(first rule of business; your money is better off in your bank than someone elses!)
Geordie: "Yon lass's gorra fyece lyke a bagga spanners!"
English: "That lady's face is rather unnatractive" |
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Sarah
Rank; Captain Gordon
247 Posts |
Posted - 22/01/2008 : 12:33:51
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your money is better off in your bank than someone elses
Didn't Peter Ustinov also famously say this? |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 22/01/2008 : 13:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah
your money is better off in your bank than someone elses
Didn't Peter Ustinov also famously say this?
Probably.
I'm not clever enough to have thought of it myself!  
Geordie: "Yon lass's gorra fyece lyke a bagga spanners!"
English: "That lady's face is rather unnatractive" |
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working tax credit ,overpayment imfomation please
