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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
 Posted - 20/10/2008 : 17:09:11
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Hi everyone, how typical that i find this website on the eve of my HMRC home visit.
My situation in brief....I am a single parent with 2 children to the same father...we have a joint mortgage which I contribute zero towards and have a very amicable and fair relationship in which our children our the most important thing. We are not a couple nor financially dependant on each other.
I received a letter back in august asking for copies of literally everything but blood samples and DNA...which I sent to them accordingly. I then received a letter four weeks ago advising I would be subject to a home visit which is tomorrow at ten and I am totally sick with worry...
Anybody else ever had a home visit?? what do they ask? I have hidden nothing but my total paranoia is eating away at my sanity now and I am getting very stressed and worried..its been dragging on for so long and i thought when they received all my stuff that would be the end of it but obviously thay are not satisfied with my info in some way....any advice...good or bad would love some opinions
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Rachel01
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
40 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2008 : 19:55:25
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It sounds like a distraint visit, When HMRC come to your home, it's usually n ot a good sign, personally i wouldn't let them in, i would avoid it like the plague.
Have they said why the house visit?
I would put them off and go see your Local MP immediatly
R.A. stirling |
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samthe
Rank; Private Primate
188 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2008 : 20:42:32
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You don't say anything about them having asked for money, so I don't think this can be a distraint visit. It sounds to me as if you are being investigated by the Compliance Unit, & that it was them who asked you for the documents you sent.
You say you are not a couple, & that you are not financially dependent on one another, but you then say there is a joint mortgage which you do not pay towards. That does seem to imply some considerable level of financial dependence. You have not given a lot of information, but I assume you have claimed as a single parent & it seems likely they are investigating whether you are a couple. A lot of factors come into deciding this. An important one is whether you are living together (I assume you are not), but even if you are not that is not necessarily going to satisfy them. One of their manuals gives examples which include a case where someone who was working away but returned to the claimant periodically was considered to be one of a couple.
I suspect you will be questioned about the relationship. If he does not live with you, make this clear (& there will be no evidence such as razor, toothbrush, clothes etc to suggest he is). The fact that he pays the mortgage may well be a stumbling block for you - if asked you will need to explain how this has come about. Is it in effect a maintenance contribution to his children? Tell them in all respects factually what the situation is. Make sure you either have someone with you to make notes of what is said, or make notes yourself. They should send you a record of the interview afterwards - ask them at the start to confirm they will do this. Make a note of the names of whoever comes.
If they end up making a decision that you are one of a couple, you can appeal if you consider this is not the case. |
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
 Posted - 20/10/2008 : 21:10:55
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Hi Sarah
You are going to get advice from every angle with this. This is my 50 pence worth.
I suppose you have known about your visit for a while, so to leave it until this late stage and cancel or not open the door, I feel would be foolish. You after all have nothing to hide, you have already submitted all the relevant documentation to support your claim. Usually these home visits made by any compliance officer are just to clarify these details. You have not given much history with regards to your present circumstances, are you claiming benefits or working? You may find that the mortgage is the main concern. When was this taken out? I will keep checking the forum tonight for your response to my questions and I will reply tonight also, knowing that you need as much info possible before tomorrow arrives.
One thing must say is that, you must, must have another person present whilst this interview is taking place, this person must take notes on the whole interview, time it starts, who is present, time it ended etc. I understand that this person may not be trained to take notes in such situations, and if the conversation is going to fast for them to note take, you must ask for the interview to go slower to allow your note taker to take notes.
Anyone in this situation would bound to be paranoid, but too me you have hidden nothing from them, and anything they feel is incorrect regarding your claim, you must not in any instance admit that you are in the wrong in anyway whatsoever. If they do find fault you must show that this was totally unknown to you and that you are innocent in making any false claims.
Please let me know about your current situation.
 
Splashin |
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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2008 : 22:10:26
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| Hi, I was student nurse working sixteen hours a week which made me eligible for family tax and childcare for my daughter, I was receiving a bursary and phoned several times to check that this was recorded and was fine..which i was assured was acceptable. In 2002 myself and my partner purchased a property however almost imediately myself and my daughter left the property and moved in with my Mum where we have lived ever since. My ex partner lived at the jointly owned property and I contributed nothing towards it and he contributed nothing towards me or my daughter. Last year my ex decided that he wanted to sell the house and move into a better property however advised me that he could only get a mortgage if i came in with him. I couldnt see this being a problem having previously declared the joint mortgage and being told this was ok if i was not living there, after all its an investment for myself and my children. Everything with the exception of the joint mortgage is registared in my mothers address ie council tax etc etc. I have recently qualified as a nurse and am now in full time employment which i declared as soon as it happened. Also I asked the officer if I needed to have anyone present at this visit and they said that I did not?? please any advice would be really greatly appreciated as I am such a worrier and feel they may interpret my nerves as an admission of guilt but I know I have been totally honest. In between all of this we had a second child but our circumstances did not change...I have remained at my mums and all the documentation they have asked for supports this (i.e is at my mums address...many many many thanks in anticipation of your much needed advice xx |
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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2008 : 23:01:28
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I am going to bed now as i need to get a good sleep and be prepared for tomorrows interrogation... it is the claimant compliance dept who are coming out and they have not asked me for any money as yet...the meeting is at 10am and I will post an update on here as soon as they leave...am really really scared. will check for any replies soon as i get up in the morn so any advie anyone can offer would be a real help.
Sarah xx |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2008 : 23:07:47
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Hi
I think the best advice given is just to be honest and tell the truth. HMRC will make their decision as to whether you are or are not a couple and issue a decision.
If you disagree with their decision then you can appeal.
From what you have said, you told the mortgage company that you were living there (as presumably your income was needed to get a higher mortgage) but you never actually went back there....Is that right?
There is no one definitive factor in deciding whether you are a couple and they will look at several things - financial dependence, whether there is a sexual relationship, how others see your relationship to name a few....
Like I say, all you can do is tell the truth. It will be up to HMRC to make their decision based on the evidence, but as I say if they do make any sort of decision that you disagree with you can appeal.
MF2 |
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splashin
Rank; Undercover HMRC Spy
Belize
446 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2008 : 23:24:32
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Hi Sarah
This joint mortgage is the cause of all this compliance activity. Any amount which is over 2000 is registered with the Inland Revenue. You will be classed as being in a joint partnership because of this application for the new mortgage. I would now just await what they have got too say about it. Please keep us updated tomorrow regarding this visit. Please, please do have someone with you, they will here things you won't and if possible get a note taker for the interview, This will show HMRC you have nothing to hide and you are prepared to fight your corner. I will be honest and say in case's similar to yours that I have seen in the past have all gone in HMRC's favor and if if this is the case both you and the ex will be responsible to repay any overpayment. I am sorry I don't have good news for you, all I can say is stand your ground and do not n any terms agree you are in the wrong.
Please keep in touch
Splashin |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 06:35:45
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Sarah, as a student nurse, did you join UNISON? If so, give them an urgent call. They have advisors, a Welfare section, and solicitors.
Morpheus: They are the gatekeepers, they are guarding all the doors and holding all the keys.
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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 07:46:13
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Thanks everyone...I am really worried now....I did declare the joint mortgage initially and was told as long as i dont live there it was fine and my ex got round me to help him with the new mortgage based on this...I have not slept all night and am really scared now...all I can do is fight my corner...they are coming into my house so can see that I live here with my mum they will find nothing to tie me to the other house other than the mortgage...I really wish I had found this website earlier...I just feel like crying....I will update you all as soon as they have gone...am gonna ask my sister to come in with me to take notes and from the offset am gonna ask for an agenda / for them to declare what errors or areas of concern they have and ensure they stick to that...god help me...I have been naive and can see that now...I dunno what I am gonna do....if you go bankrupt do you lose your job?? i only just qualified after 3 years hard graft as a single parent...boo hoo   |
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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 12:16:51
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| Well that was the most intense two hours of my life...they asked me loadsa stuff...the woman said she seems satisfied that I am a single parent but has asked for more info..turns out that even though i called to advise my daughter had started full time school the call handlers didnt do anything with it as i never spelt it out so i have been overpaid for chilcare and will be liable for a penalty due to negligence for not checking my award notice...once she has seen the other stuff she will work out my overpayment and penalty and write to me...thanks everyone for your advie...will keep you posted on my progress xxx |
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TCC Webmaster
Da Purple one
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
129 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 12:47:36
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Hi Saraht,
If you rang and informed the Tax Credit Office that your daughter had started full time school - and they didn't do anything about it - then they are at fault. Similarly, I wouldn't lie down and accept a penalty off them either.
I would also get right on with claiming your data - go to http://www.taxcc.org/dispute2.htm to see how.
Don't let them get away with anything, and don't feel intimidated!
The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !! |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 14:00:26
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Did you specifically tell them that you no longer had any childcare costs in the phone call?
Whilst I agree with TCC Webmaster that you should not just accept things that can be disputed, appealed etc....I don't think you have posted enough info to be sure.
If you rang up and told the helpline that your child had started school full time, then that isn't the same thing as saying you no longer have childcare costs. Plenty of people claim childcare for after school clubs etc when their child is at full time school, so the helpline would not necessarily make the connection between the two.
If you didn't inform them of the childcare ending, and didn't pick up on the award notice then a dispute may be hard work.
I would request the phone call if your recollection is hazy and find out exactly what you said to them. If you did mention your childcare stopping then you should certainly dispute the overpayment and appeal the penalty.
MF2 |
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samthe
Rank; Private Primate
188 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 17:34:16
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Definitely request a CD of the calls. Why did you ring up and tell them your daughter had started full time school? As far as I can see, the only reason was so that they stopped the childcare - there is no other need to tell them this. In my view it would have been perfectly reasonable to expect the call handler to ask you to clarify why you were calling them with this information.
I would certainly dispute it. Even if you end up having to pay back the overpayment, it seems outrageous to me that they should slap a penalty on you for this. It is not as if you ignored the change, & many many people fail to find errors on their award notices without getting penalties for them. |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 20:57:03
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>>In my view it would have been perfectly reasonable to expect the call handler to ask you to clarify why you were calling them with this information.<<
I agree with our Friend Samthe.
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon for Prime Minister!!" |
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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 23:11:31
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| Hi everyone...i called for 2 reasons...to clarify that I was returning to my nurse training fom mat leave but staying on mat leave from work and was this acceptable...which it was and to advis that daughter started full time school...the compliance woman told me today that basically th call handlers are just organ grinders and not trained to ask questions...she said I should have said..."my daughter has started full time school...AND THIS MEANS I NO LONGER WANT TO CLAIM CHILDCARE"...but i didnt spell it out and they dont ask questions...i told her that was outrageous...but she said i was negligent as I should have seen on my award that they had not stopped my claim...I told her...and showed her...that I have approx 20 of these awards...all different and equally confusing...the whole system is shambolic and leaves us (already vulnerable) people wide open to these gestapo esqu interrogations...once i am through this I am cancelling my claim and wantn othing more to do with any of it....but i want to thank you all for your advice and support and I will keep you updated on my progress xx |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 21/10/2008 : 23:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan the Geordie
>>In my view it would have been perfectly reasonable to expect the call handler to ask you to clarify why you were calling them with this information.<<
I agree with our Friend Samthe.
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon for Prime Minister!!"
I think I still disagree, but that just highlights how subjective any form of 'reasonableness' is.
There is no harm in disputing, indeed it is certainly worth doing if you believe that it should be written off. If the whole purpose of the call was only to say 'my child has started school' then it is more reasonable IMO to expect the helpline to say (a) that has no impact which hopefully would prompt the claimant to mention childcare.
However, if it was mentioned as part of a lengthy conversation then the two, in my mind, don't necessarily link together. As I said, plenty of people claim childcare when their children go to school full time.
Anyway, it really doesn't matter about our views as ultimately it will be for the decision makers to decide, but you should have a look at the COP 26 criteria.
The new test has a list of responsibilities, one of which is to check the award notice (the time limit will probably not apply). You say that you had lots of award notices, did you ring HMRC to tell them you did not understand or ask for additional clarification on what you found confusing? that might help any dispute.
Whilst it might sound as if I am being unsympathetic, I am trying to pre-empt some of the arguments you may come across from HMRC which hopefully will help you prepare your dispute a little more.
In this case, requesting the telephone call yourself would be a good start as it will obviously hold the key. It is important to find out what the helpline operator said in reply to you saying your child had started school.
Good luck.
MF2 |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2008 : 01:01:34
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Thank you Miss Froy.
I think it is all about different strokes for different folks.
I have difficulty in imagining you as being unsympathetic, I find your comments to be well-balanced, informative & helpful.
"Dave Anderson (Labour) MP for Blaydon for Prime Minister!!" |
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auntieh
Rank; Really should become a politician
United Kingdom
619 Posts |
Posted - 22/10/2008 : 20:24:37
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What exactly is the point of a 'Helpline' that does not help you? If all it does it take messages then they might as well use voicemail and save money on employing staff. If I had been in Sarah's position I would certainly have expected some advice on ways that my claim might be affected by my child starting school and I would have thought that querying whether I would still incur child care costs would be top of the list.
How disingenuous for TCO to claim that the helpline operates along the lines that missfroy is relaying to us. This is not some bizarre version of 'Call my Bluff' or some other game involving word play - these people are dealing with fundamental aspects of people's lives, in many cases some of the most vulnerable people in society whom the Government professes to care about.
We should sue 'em under the Trade Description Act if this really is TCO's idea of a helpline.
Rant over.
Auntie
"You can dress a pig in a suit but you can't stop it grunting" |
Edited by - auntieh on 22/10/2008 21:31:40 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2008 : 07:39:02
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Auntie, I couldn't agree more.
HMRC has truly forgotten that they were entrusted to administer an anti-poverty entitlement to people - often vulnerable - who may have little experience of dealing with bureaucratic government agencies, nor with the tax office. 'Helpline' and 'Customer Support Officer' implies that help and support will be given, not misinformation, bad advice, threats and repayment demands.
Sarah, do get a copy of HMRC's most recent COP26 and read up on HMRC's 'responsibilities'. You'll need to quote these back to HMRC if you want to either win your case or at least receive some understanding from HMRC. You'll have to cite the 'responsibility' or the 'standard' and then set out why you feel it wasn't met in your case. That's how ALL the latest batch of case winners I have heard from directly have got to win - by application of the new COP26.
For instance, if my memory serves me right, HMRC should record and act CORRECTLY on the information you gave them. They should give correct advice - and I agree with Auntie that you shouldn't have to intuitively know what questions you have to ask them to get the right answers. THEY are the experts, and YOU are the layperson who doesn't yet know but needs to comply in order to avoid falling foul of their rules.
HMRC should also correct any mistakes you advise them of. And any changes you advise, they must act upon these within 30 days. For 'changes' I would read not only actual things changing in your situation that you have told them of - and surely your conversation above should've signalled to them a change of circumstances so that their questions got asked at THAT point, and not ages later, invading your own home, and with menaces? - but also errors pointed out to them
Incidentally, on the old 'reasonableness' test which preceeded the new COP26, there was HMRC guidance which instructed those examining cases to look more favourably on claimants where there were multiple and often conflicting award notices. Do cite that when you tell HMR you have met as many of your own 'responsibilities' under COP26 as you could possibly have been aware of at the time.
Only you will know how honest you are and have been. Personally, I am convinced that you are and were. If you have only ever acted in good faith yet got stitched up by a bad system, you really need to fight this until you win. It's only by challenging a bad system that the bad system is forced to change. Every time an honest claimant challenges their own overpayment, not only do they help themselves, but they make it easier for other honest people to do the same. Eventually the message will hit home that HMRC is handling more complaints and disputes than it is dealing with happy and correctly paid 'customers', and the penny will drop. 'Insiders' have told me of internal chaos and the employing of extra HMRC staff to dealm with this - and they cannot do this indefinately. Something will have to give.
Go and win your case, for yourself, your family, and all your friends and allies here, who have been or are in the same boat. People tend to win more quickly and dramatically when they involve their MP and the press, even local press - anonymously. Believe me, it can be done. Every error in my case, HMRC wanted to blame me for. Yet they zeroed my salary at least three times, and for all but one sneaky occasion (when the final award amount matched what was shown on a notice with my correct salary on it anyway) behind the scenes, invisibly. Eventually they had to admit it was all their fault and not mine.
Good luck. And please post on the 'success' thread when you have won!!!
Morpheus: They are the gatekeepers, they are guarding all the doors and holding all the keys.
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saraht206
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2008 : 09:26:26
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Thank you everyone for all of your advice....everything i have told them is the truth and the compliance woman did say that everythng i was telling her was plausible...i will now await their final decision and what my penalty is and then i intend to fight it.
I have to admit i feel very scared about challenging them but will keep checking this website for advice and support...I just want this over and i intend to stop claiming anything from them...i could not go through all this ever again.
I will most definitely keep you all updated on the outcome of he home visit and my intended fight.
Sarah x |
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Sick with worry and need advice
