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tomtoogood
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
 Posted - 15/08/2008 : 17:14:23
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Hi,
I am so glad I found this website, I am going out of my mind!
we claim tax credits, but have only ever recieved the child tax credit, not the working tax credit, as we "earn too much".
I have been claiming childcare vouchers through my work for the past 2 years, basically I dont get taxed on these. Previously when ringing the tax credit office I have been told I dont need to tell them about this when declaring my child care costs. In the annual review packs and explanatory notes there is no explanation that you are supposed to minus the amount you recieve in child care vouchers from your total childcare costs.
When I renewed this year by chance I stubled across some info on the web that said tht you do have to take vouchers off and when i questions the tax credits office they said I do. So I did, which reduced our childcare costs down from £36 a week to £6 a week! They then realised we had been overpaid for the past 2 years and so have asked us to pay back over £2000!!!!
that is the simple part and I wont go into too much detail here as I am running out of energy with the whole tax credit thing!
My dispute with them for not having to pay it back is that no where on the renewal packs does it explain that you have to take vouchers off of childcare costs, so it was reasonable for me to assume I was doing the right thing. I have alays been honest with them, to the point that I ring them with every change in income etc, as I have always been paranoid about being overpaid!
I know of other people that have been doing the same and didnt know until we told them what happened to us!!
surely this is wrong! it should be clearly stated on the renewal packs? otherwise how re people to know, there must be many thousands of fammilies out there doing the same thing and being overpaid!!!
To rub salt in the wound, before i had a chance to send off my dispute form for the overpayment they have reduced my monthly payments.. WITHOUT even writing to me (the letter arrived a few days after the money went into the bank. This means that we are now overdrawn and cant afford anything this month. We keep a very tight budget every month as we dont have much left over after bills ec do to have that tax credit money taken away with no notice or warning is a BIG DEAL. This surely has to be criminal?! luckily I have an overdraft, if i didnt the children would not be having hot water and food as my bank would be blocked!! I say luckily, but I am now paying interest on this overdraft!
The other point I have is that the award notcies are extremly misleading as we never actually thought we were getting any help with childcare anyway, as under the working tax credit and childcare elemment sections it always gets reduced down to £0.00 due to our income, I am now informed that it gets lumped into the child ta credit..So why bother having the separate sections? This is very misleading and makes it impossible to trace what you are etting and what for!
Anyone who has been in similar situation with regard to childcare and vouchers please post back as this is doing my head in!
I have sent teh dispute form off and requested all phone calls from the freedom of information office.. I will fight it, as I know it was not my mistake, however I dont kwno how much faith I should have in them sorting it out and seeing the sense of my argument!!
Thanks
Tom
Tom Toogood
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TCC Webmaster
Da Purple one
Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
129 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2008 : 21:55:33
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Hiya Tom.
You feel the same way that many, many people have felt before finding our website. I was one of them ....
You seem to have done all of the right things so far - requesting your data from HMRC and sending off the dispute form. Make sure that you keep a good and accurate account of your dealings with them. Send every letter by recorded delivery - and log the details of every telephone call; time of call, who you spoke to and a summary of what happened during the call.
Also, please make sure that you sign the petition and join the campaign. It is only through everyone campaigning that we will get anything changed!
Others will be along soon to give you more advice.
Best of luck!
The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !! |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2008 : 07:28:53
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Tomtoogood, you need to go to www.taxCC.org and download the dispute pack. Ask for all your documentation and call records, by using the SARN request template. Ask HMRC for a clear, step-by-step explanation of what went wrong where, and why they are wanting money back from you. And look up (I will try to find it and post it here) details of the old 'reasonable belief' test, because if you acted on Helpline Advice and disregarded the childcare vouchers when applying, you would 'reasonably believe' at that time that that was the basis on which a claim had to be made. Under the old rules, you can't be penalised because you had appalling advice. It says in the list of conditions that HMRC give as examples for their exercising discretion and writing an overpayment off.
There's no right or wrong way to win a dispute, but I've always found it helpful to quote HMRC guidance back at them, and evidence where my dispute matches the conditions they describe for writing off. If you rang the TCO and got given dud information, you may be lucky enough to have this phone call included in your CD of retrieved calls. Personally, I wouldn't signal too much to HMRC at this stage of the line of dispute you're taking, until you get that call in your hands, as I honestly believe that some selected editing goes on! You can insist they don't recover anything from you whilst you are awaiting your data and preparing your case. Good luck! We'll help you as much as we can here. Miss Froy 2 is always good for some pointers in the right direction!
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2008 : 07:40:22
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And by the way, please JOIN the campaign - actively! We have thousands of people who visit our pages, and if everyone donated £1 and wrote a couple of letters to their MP and Brown, it wouldn't take long to have massive consumer action and a real political will to improve things. Otherwise the best we can do is all individually fight and win our cases. By joining together we can make it politically expedient for the government to declare a full write-off, and not only will everyone currently in dispute be spared this misery, but the system will have to improve for others. The other point, of course, is that when HMRc come after us, we are left feeling frightened, powerless and helpless. By fighting back, we win ourselves a litt;le more control of our own destiny. Try it, if you don't believe me! Some people shrink from writing letters as they don't feel able to express themselves quite as they wish to, but to be honest, anyone who feels the outrage of this system can - and should - tell everyone they can about it. MPs, Brown, the newspapers, CAB offices - anywhere where there are people with the power and influence to change things, or where there are innocent victims.
This is YOUR campaign, not ours. Please let's all do our bit. There are forums out there where members are struggling with tax credit bills, unaware that there is any line of defence. Please let's spread the word.
Fundraising is also something we need to do. We have legal action ready to go, but need a back-up fund so we can launch an attack. Legal action can't be taken unless those we pursue are satisfied that we can cover their own costs should we lose. We can self-fund train fares to meetings, stationery and meeting room hire, but we don't have the resources to stage legal action - without your help.
Members all vary in what they are up for, but a few letters fired off at your MP can make a big difference between having that MP on board and fighting for tax credit justice, and not.
Thanks - Ali.
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2008 : 08:02:09
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Okay, found and amalgamated some old posts on the 'reasonableness test' or 'reasonable belief test'. Although HMRc scrapped this, they seem to flit between their old and new COP26s when they want to, so why shouldn't we?
Hope you find this useful:
Just to start the ball rolling, here's some info regarding how HMRC decide on the question of 'reasonable belief' when they mess up:
Consider the following
• If the system problem occurred at the same time as a change to the award could we reasonably expect the claimant to understand that their new award amount was correct?
• Did the system error result in a one off payment? If so, was that payment large enough for us to expect the claimant to question it?
• Did the claimant question the overpayment and have they mentioned that they believe they received incorrect advice from an officer of the revenue or one of its agents?
• If you have identified that the overpayment occurred as a result of a system problem and
• You are satisfied that you can make a decision on the recoverability of the overpayment based on the evidence available then you must take steps to inform the claimant and implement your decision
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/payment_opayments/ntc0780290.htm
And...
• If the claimant thought the award was correct, even though they received more than they should have, consider the following
• Was the error obvious? For example, were there 3 children included in the award when there should have been only 2?
• Was more money being paid than their award notice said they were entitled to? For example, duplicate payments into their bank account
• Did a combination of changes occur? Where the customer has reported a change of circumstances and their case has been subject to a system error at the time the change was applied there is scope for confusion on the claimant’s part. Consider whether the effect of the changes was consistent with the reported change. For example, if the customer reported a decrease in income and there was an increase in entitlement then this is consistent. If, however, the customer reports an increase in income and (combined with the system problem) this leads to an increase in entitlement there is an inconsistency between the two. In the latter case we would expect the customer to contact us to query the position, whereas we would not necessarily expect this in the former case
• Did multiple errors occur? Where we have made more than one error on the case there is a potential for confusion on the part of the claimant. If there have been multiple errors and subsequently attempts to correct the award, this reduces the chances of it being reasonable to expect the customer to recognise the error
• How did the overpayment present itself? In the case of system generated overpayments, was a large payment made when the claimant would not have expected to receive one. If the claimant notified us of a change, was a large payment made when it would have been more reasonable to expect an increase in their regular payments
• If the claimant was unable to tell if the payments were correct, consider
• Were there any other factors to take into account? For example, a delay in the award notice being issued or there were multiple award notices, so that it was not clear what level of payments should be expected or when
• Were literacy or language difficulties a significant factor?
Note: These factors should only be considered if the claimant or their personal acting body raises them. You must not actively pursue them as a reason for remitting an overpayment
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk:80/manuals/ntcmanual/payment_opayments/ntc0780300.htm
And...
If there is a Contra error, this means the overpayments that were not automatically remitted were for £300 or more, which is considered a large enough amount to have been obvious to the claimant. The claimant will have received additional payments, either into their bank account or by giro. Were the amounts of these payments small enough that it could be considered reasonable for a claimant not to realise that they had been paid twice?
• It is more difficult for a claimant to argue that they believed their award was correct when they received duplicate giro payments as opposed to duplicate payments into a bank account
• Consider carefully the impact of the payments to the claimant’s bank account. Where there were multiple incorrect payments, smaller duplicate payments will not be as easy to detect as large duplicate payments, which when added together have caused the £300 or more overpayment
• Consider whether there were problems with award notices, either none issued or multiple notices issued
• Also consider if the claimant had difficulties contacting a Contact Centre to report this overpayment
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk:80/manuals/ntcmanual/payment_opayments/ntc0780320.htm
Some of the factors that HMRC will look at when considering reasonable belief include:
Was the error obvious? (e.g. one partner’s income missing, or 3 children included in the award when there should have been only 2)
Was more money being paid to the claimant than their award notice said they were entitled to?
Did the problem occur in the early months of the scheme when award notices were issued late and some claimants could not determine what they should have received, or payments had started before the award notice arrived?
Was there a delay in the award notice being issued, or multiple award notices, so that it was not clear what level of payments should be expected or when?
Were there delays in processing the claim or change of circumstances?
Did the claimant contact us several times, and we failed to take the appropriate action, for example, to amend a tax credits award to reflect a change of circumstances that had been reported
(I don't have the link for this.)
And notes from our meeting with HMRC senior officials, on 12th July 2007:
<<HMRC said that ‘there is a degree of acceptance that in the early years things went terribly wrong’, and that the reason we were seeing fewer remitted overpayments now was due to improvements in HMRC accuracy and better communication to claimants as to what was expected of them. This had led to a ‘different approach’ which is harder. We pointed out that the media campaign promoting the need to keep HMRC updated was instrumental in creating the myth that we were at fault for not advising, when in fact HMRC were at fault for not correctly acting.
D… said that HMRC recognised the difficulties in the early stages, and that it was difficult to work out what was going on: ‘we generally accepted that’. With the new guidance since April 2006 reinforcing the message from the start that all details needed careful checking, expectations were that claimants would now do this. We pointed out that there are claimants who are only now having overpayments from 2003 discovered, who should not be treated, because their overpayments have only just been picked up, as though the problems happened after the new guidance.>>
The gist of this is that the older the overpayment, the more likely HMRC are to use discretion and waive it if you persist, as the system, by their own admission, was a shambles. Go for it!
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2008 : 08:03:53
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If you "received incorrect advice from an officer of the revenue or one of its agents" how could you have done anything differently? I would search down the CD when you were given cr@p advice and cite this at them!
Good luck... Ali.
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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tomtoogood
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2008 : 08:17:42
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Hi,
Thanks for the support and advice.
I have just sent a letter to my MP and also sent a second letter to the tax credits making a complaint about the fact that they reduced my payments (recliamed my overpayment) before they even told me about it and befre I had a chance to dispute it! I have also sent this letter to the MP.
I am determined to fight this all the way and take it as far as I can. I am sure that thousands of families must be filling in the forms in good faith just like me.. there is no explanation of how to deal with childcare costs and childcare vouchers on the renewal packs. Only recently after digging on TC website did I find out what was supposed to be done. This is not adequate in my eyes as the form should explain what should be done!
I will keep you posted on this one. I spent hours at teh weekend putting together a log of events, already 3 pages long. Its sad that this will consume my families time for a while but I wont let them get away with it.
Thanks
Tom Toogood |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2008 : 13:33:02
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Hi
The fact that someone receives nil childcare is often confusing as to then how an overpayment occurs.
The reason is that whilst you do not actually receive any childcare costs per se, the fact that your childcare costs are included in the tax credit calculation means that you receive more Child Tax Credit.
Tax credits work by tapering down once your income goes above a certain amount. So for every £1 above £6420, you will lose 37p from your tax credits.
However, tax credits are made up of various elements (working tax credit basic, couple, childcare, disability, child tax credit, family element). It works by taking the 37p in a certain order. You lose WTC elements first, then the childcare and then CTC.
So what this means is that if you include childcare costs in a calculation, whilst your income may mean they are all tapered away, it will mean your CTC elements are not touched as quickly.
Anyway, I agree with what you have been told above, if you were given wrong advice then that is what your dispute should focus on.
With regards to whether the information was in the renewals forms, I don't have a copy on me, but I checked the main claim form notes and it is definately in those.
However, really it would seem irrelevant to me whether it was in the renewal pack or not if you then contact HMRC to check and were given wrong advice.
Good luck
MF2 |
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tomtoogood
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2008 : 14:41:03
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Thanks Miss Froy..
For all the explanations that the TCO helpline have given me, none made any sense.. but now from yoru description i can understand why putting childcare in does affect your cliam even if you aren't actually getting "childcare element"
If only the TCO employees were trained to explain thinsg properly and not make you feel like a waste of space for asking!
Like you say, I need to focus on the fact that the error was not my own doing.
Thanks again
Tom
Tom Toogood |
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Overpayment - Childcare costs HELP!!!!
