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tommybanana
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 15/07/2008 : 22:11:53
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Hi,
Hope you guys can help. I (allegedly) owe close to £3k for 05/06 tax year for tax credit overpayment. I now live in USA so don't have access to the CAB , MP's etc.
This is a really complicated scenario for me and I really don't know what to do. I am a UK citizen and returned to the UK in mid 2004 following a few years working abroad. My father stated upon my return that I would be entitled to WFTC as it was then. I doubted this and dismissed him. He put a claim in (this was done online I believe) using my details, without my knowledge, which was granted. I never received anything to sign and I'm not exactly sure what dad put on the claim (he has since died)
All was well until they stopped my award, when I enquired as to why they said because I had not returned a form to them. This is where the overpayment arose.
Now, what do I tell them, the truth? (reluctant to tell them my dad was the once who claimed - don't want the tax peeps chasing my mum for the money if its considered fraudulent) if so will I be liable for the full amount of tax credits paid to me for the length of the claim. Would this even be considered an official error as they obviously did little if any checks before awarding this claim.
They have recently sent me a letter from the Debt Management team in Bradford stating that if I do not repay the sum owed or contact them by August they will liaise with tax authorities here to recover the overpayment......is this correct or a vialed threat, as they use the word 'may' alot in their correspondence?
HELP! how should I approach / handle this?
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auntieh
Rank; Really should become a politician
United Kingdom
619 Posts |
Posted - 15/07/2008 : 22:24:31
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Hi Tommy Banana
This seems a very unusual case and the second one in a row involving someone living abroad. I am not sure what the position is regarding a claim made in your name by someone else. Hopefully an expert like missfroy will be along soon to help you with this.
In the meantime you might want to think about disputing the recovery of the 'overpayment' so go to the main website www.taxcc.org and download the Dispute Pack.
Also see my reply to the previous post.
Good luck
Auntie
"You can dress a pig in a suit but you can't stop it grunting" |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 08:08:02
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Hi
After your father put the claim in....who received the money and the correspondence that went with it?
Sounds like a 'non renewal case', where because you didn't return your renewal forms they are recovering some of the overpayment. Were you claiming as a single person? If so, then a £3000 overpayment sounds high unless you (a) have a disability or (b)were only earning around £5000 per year.
On the issue of recovery - I read the post previously where it appears HMRC have told this group that they wouldn't take further action against someone abroad. I have seen cases where in fact they have continued recovery and I am not sure whether people should be convinced from this one person's interpretation of HMRC policy. The fact is that if HMRC have determined that there is a debt, there is a debt. I would be worried about the implications of ignoring HMRC if the person ever needed to return to the UK. I shall need to think about this somemore.
Back to your case, non-renewal cases are difficult to dispute anyway, yours has an added complication. I think if you can give more info about how long you received the payments, where the payments went, who received the paperwork.
MF2 |
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tommybanana
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 15:34:21
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| I received the money into my bank account and also had some paid with my salary. I did not receive much if any correspondence due to us moving regularly from rental home to rental home and had loads of problems with our mail. I am married with 2 kids so that my explain the high overpayment and my missus is a stay at home mum. I think the claim ran from Aug 04 until Jan 06? I will have to check what letters I have from them.......I am at work right now. |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 18:13:14
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This is a case outside of the normal realms of disputes and so I would say you should seek legal advice.
If it is a non-renewal case (i.e. you didn't send back the renewal papers) it is unlikely in my opinion to be written off without good reason as to why you didn't renew.
That aside, the fact that you are now saying you didn't make the original claim is the big issue and I have no idea how that will impact upon this.
My own personal view is I would think it morally wrong to use the fact that your Dad made the claim (presumably with good intentions) without your knowledge to remove the overpayment when in fact you received the money and presumably benefited from it for such a long period.
However, the legalities of this are something you should seek advice about. I have no idea what the tax credit office would do, it is made more difficult by the fact your Dad is no longer here to explain and by the fact that you let the claim continue once you discovered it.
MF2
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tommybanana
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 18:35:23
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Great, thanks for your help. I will seek legal advice on this matter, however as stated previously, I did not want to go down the road of admitting that it was not me that made the claim and you are correct I did benefit from this too.
Is there a way of checking what my entitlement would have been? I want to compare what HMRC were paying against what my 'real' circumstance are ( like I said, no idea what dad put on the initial claim form) just for my curiosity to see if this overpayment is accurate?
Also where do I stand with regards to the fact that I never put my signature to anything? Would this not be considered an official error anyhow as how can they pay out on and incomplete claim?
I've buried my head in the sand far too long on this and would appreciate any advice that you have! Many thanks! |
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tommybanana
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 18:39:57
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Oh forgot to mention - I never did receive the renewal form. When I enquired as to why they stopped the claim they said they would sent me another form to fill out, which I never received but moved back to the US and forgot all about it...
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2008 : 18:58:12
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I am struggling to see what relevance real entitlement has to whether the overpayment is accurate. The award was paid initially on the basis of facts that were on the initial claim form. Payments continued to be made and you would have at some point received some award notices - the facts could have been checked.
I am not sure anyone here can give you advice, this potentially has elements of fraud in it.
So the your two options seem to be (and these are options, I am not advocating that they are the right thing to do) to
(a) accept the overpayment and dispute it - which in my opinion you would be unlikely to have it written off or
(b) challenge the overpayment on the grounds that you didn't make the claim, and accept the consequences that would flow with this (especially given that you received the money for such a long period).
Again, the best advice is to seek legal advice.
MF2 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 06:30:49
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I am struggling with this, I have to say, because to my mind it hinges on what constitutes fraud. I would have thought that if a person has an underlying entitlement to a benefit or tax credit, because they have an underlying entitlement, if a third party assists them in the making of what is essentially an honest claim, the claimant would not necessarily be acting fraudulently. Perhaps Tommybanana's late father filled in the on-line form as though he were Tommybanana and not Daddybanana? It's certainly different and irregular, but is it illegal or fraudulent? I know it is often said that ignorance of the law is no defence, but what has the end result been? If there was a fraud, of which I am not personally convinced, the alleged perpetrator of this fraud is no longer living and cannot be held accountable. It would be unfair, in my view at least, to punish Tommybanana for something his father did, with the best intentions it would seem, albeit not quite within the 'rules'.
I would also not condemn Tommybanana (not implying that Miss Froy is) for reciving the income because there was an entitlement there. Welfare Benefits Advisors, social workers, helping services and supportive friends help people fill out benefit and tax credit forms every day, albeit that they may write in the first person to recapture the actual claimant's words and make it more personal, but don't sign the form as though they were them.
If HMRC messed up, it is a shame that a claimant who is basically honest and only claiming their entitlement should be treated as a fraudster or criminal, when they thought they were entitled to the money, incurred the overpayment through HMRC's own practices and errors, and were only inhibited from 'coming clean' about the means of claiming (ie. who made the actual claim) out of love and respect for their own parent (now passed over) and a wish not to cause them harm.
Of the options above, I would veer towards a), but would also seek - as Miss Froy suggests - some legal advice. This can be got reasonably through either a trade union solicitor or as an initial consultation. I will also find the email I was forwarded in which it states that HMRC do not pursue overpayment 'debts' from expatriots as long as they do not get sucked into replies! In other words, claimant honesty and desire to negotiate does not pay! I am noting the irony of this - that Tommybanana could effectively get into more difficulty by entering into full and honest discussions with HMRC than he ever could - it would seem - just doing a runner! Yet another example of HMRC's inconsistency, punishment of honesty, and defeat of the underdog. Roll on that legal action we are saving our pennies for!
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 06:33:50
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From:
To: PJ
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: overpayments abroad
Paula,
Thank you for your email.
Having considered your issues below I am able to reply as follows. Clearly if we do not know that someone has gone abroad, we will act on the latest information we have. However, where we know that someone has gone abroad, we issue an application for payment but if no response is received we will take no further action.
T........
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 06:37:49
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I'm not suggesting you'd get anywhere with it, but if you do choose to enter into dialogue with HMRC rather than just ignore them and hope they will go away, and HMRC turn 'nasty', it might be worth reminding them that there's evidence that they deal with expatriots in the above way, and that it is grossly unfair to penalise you for at least entering into discussions with them?
It may also still be possible to enlist the support of your UK MP. Let's just hope they are either Opposition or of the Jon Cruddas school of GENUINE Labour ethics, ie. not baying for your money and blood.
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 09:02:43
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Ali-MW - I was in no way suggesting that the OP should not have his entitlement or indeed that his father was doing anything more than helping him which I acknowledged in an earlier post. Whilst technically it may (or may not) be wrong to do this, the OP got his award into payment which I agree is the most important thing.
So I have no problem if it was left at that and the overpayment dealt with under the normal course of things. Where I do have a personal problem with it is if the OP then tries to use the fact that his father made the application to get out of the overpayment by saying that the claim was not correct from the start and he never signed it. His father presumably did what he thought was helpful for his son to secure his entitlement, the OP then for 18 months received tax credits via his pay and his bank account. I don't think it would be right to use this a defence is all I was saying.
If he were to take this action, then he would be (in my opinion) alleging that it is a fraudulent claim i.e. one that he didn't make nor didn't sign.
I agree entirely with what you say about people assisting others with claim forms, but that isn't the same as doing something completely without someones knowledge even if it is was for the best intentions.
Apologies if I did not make my point clear. This is way outside my area of knowledge and so really my comments were just my personal opinion on what felt right.
I wasn't condemning him for receiving the income...if anything I was objecting to the fact that it doesn't seem right to have received it but then go back on that and get out of the overpayment by alleging his father made a claim that he had nothing to do with. So actually I think we singing from the same hymn sheet in a round about way..
'If HMRC messed up'....it is entirely possible that they did but equally possible that they didn't. Whilst this forum is for those who have problems with HMRC, sometimes claimants do make mistakes as well. It is possible that he just didn't return the renewal form. But it is possible to dispute the overpayment like any other person would without having to go back and involve his father if he procedes on the basis of the earlier part of your post.
Either way - he should get legal advice as no-one here is qualified to advise on whether the claim would or would not be considered fraudulent (if the OP used it as a defence against the overpayment).
MF2 |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2008 : 09:13:22
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Re the overpayment from overseas?
Are Tax Credit Casualties taking a particular line on this? Are you advising people to not engage with HMRC on the basis of this email?
MF2
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tommybanana
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2008 : 00:23:42
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Thanks for all of your replies.
I'm not trying to take to easy way out, just wanted to ask a few "what if's" to test the water so to speak. As far as TCO are concerned (and myself) it was me that filed the claim and therefore my responsibility.
What I wanted to do was assess the award, as I've said previously no idea what dad put on the form, in particular with regards to my income. Unfortunately all the paperwork I have is from 2007, not sure if what little I had got lost/misplaced during my move, and these all relate to the overpayment btw.... my concern is if they go back and look at the claim and see a discrepancy with regards to my earnings then maybe I'll be accused of fraud for supplying them with the wrong info initially.
Very tempting to continue to ignore these letters and to be honest 3,000GBP (no pound sign here!) is almost $6000 which I just don't have and although I have no plans to return to the UK for the foreseable future, I just dont know what's around the corner. I may just end up returning to the UK sooner and having to face HMRC would not be a pleasant prospect. Would hate to get blacklisted and have this debt all over my credit history (do they actually do this??) Their last letter sounds pretty convincing that they will involve the IRS here to recover this debt. So I will have to engage them. Just wish I'd listened to my missus earlier who is constantly badgering me to get this sorted. 
I'm thinking that I'd dispute the O/P and request all my info under the freedom of information doo-daa. Am I right in thinking that it is too late to submit a retro renewal form now?
Regards,
TommyB
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Edited by - tommybanana on 18/07/2008 00:26:49 |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2008 : 07:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by missfroy2
Re the overpayment from overseas?
Are Tax Credit Casualties taking a particular line on this? Are you advising people to not engage with HMRC on the basis of this email?
MF2
Good question! I can only speak for myself, as this is not something we have discussed as yet, but my perspective is this:
I am not an expert, on this or any other aspect of tax credit overpayments; I am an overpaid ex-tax credit claimant without special expertise, and am posting one view of the expatriot issue which has come my way from one HMRC Official, for others to decide what they want to do. I am not advocating people 'do a runner', as my own belief is that people should be honest in their dealings with HMRC, but alongside this I believe that HMRC should encourage and reward honesty, not penalise it, as they seem to be doing. Even HMRC's disregard only applies to actual income, not HMRC errors, so claimants fare worse if they honestly declare their income and HMRC record it wrongly, than they do if they themselves have given wrong figures. Also, my 'reward' for declaring my same sex relationship on the day I had to was to receive a Christmas present of a huge overpayment, and in this I am not alone. Where's the justice in that? You get overpaid if you split up, and overpaid if you become a couple! In one of the PAC reports it cites the writing-off of fraudulent overpayments, and yet HMRC avidly pursue honest claimants from 'principle' rather than for economic reasons (they can't even give a breakdown of the costs of recovery against what they snatch and bully back!). So at every turn HMRC seem to punish compliant and honest behaviour, and reward its opposite! I would not particularly advocate or recommend hiding from HMRC abroad, but I really feel people should know what HMRC's 'take' on this is, so that they can remind our nemesis that they themselves are not playing fair. Meanwhile, HMRC should be more transparent and accountable, and there should be a truly independent body to monitor them, having in its ranks ordinary taxpayers, tax credit claimants, welfare rights advisors and representatives from business, who will have a critical eye to some of HMRC's less savoury antics.
But this is just my own, 'off the top of my head' view...
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 18/07/2008 : 08:04:16
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Miss Froy, please don't think I was implying you were overly critical of Tommybanana and his father's actions - in fact I tried to make this clear by saying, 'I would also not condemn Tommybanana (not implying that Miss Froy is)...'. I would tend to agree that our perspectives are not that dissimilar. I, too, wouldn't particularly want to see Tommybanana going down the 'my dad did it' route. I would strongly recommend Tommybanana sending off a SARN request for all the papers and calls on his case, and seeing what that uncovers to the trained eye of a CAB worker, or even what light we can shed here. If I am a little defensive over forum members here, it springs from seeing rather too much - from the people who get in touch with Paula, Sarah, the Webmaster and me - of HMRC's worst excesses, so perhaps I do have a jaundiced view of HMRC's ability to get things right! But obviously they have produced some workers of greater thoughtfulness and integrity who take the time (and risk?) of helping us here. I just wish that proper consideration could be given to all the circumstances of a case, because at the moment it is too adversarial. Claimants almost feel they aren't 'allowed' to make even innocent mistakes borne of misunderstanding or poor information provided, and I know people become fearful if they find they may have contributed in some small way to the bigger problem - almost to the point that they feel it has to be covered up. What an awful system this is when people are too frightened to tell the whole story! In criminal justice there seems to be an acceptance that people aren't saints, and much effort seems to go into looking at the whole situation, and what people were thinking at the time. In the tax and tax credit system everything is so either/or - it seems as though a claimant must get everything perfectly right and HMRC everything totally wrong for there to be any leeway or compassion shown. I cannot get my head around why this has to be so. Didn't we have Human Rights down the line somewhere? Or do they all stop abruptly the moment someone's signature lands up on a tax credit claim form? When did we suddenly becoime sub-human?
Okay, rant over. This is why we have lawyers looking at the Human Rights aspects, and this is why we are collecting any donations. Even a pound will help! Just go to the 'Home' link at the top of the forum page, and them select the 'donate' option from the left hand side of the home page. Once we get our back-up fund (which we have to have in the event of losing our case, even though the case itself is being pursued for us on a pro bono basis) we can take legal action against HMRC with a Judicial Review. Just a little aside there for anyone feeling generous!
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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tommybanana
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 30/07/2008 : 18:13:24
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Am I right in thinking that it is too late to submit a retro renewal form now?
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tfg
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
1 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2008 : 03:01:03
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quote:
Originally posted by tommybanana
Now, what do I tell them, the ["]truth["]?
If you want to go down this route, it would involve accusations of fraud or identity theft against your father which would ultimately involve contact with the police. Also, as you did nothing to stop the claim once you realised it was active (they can listen to calls and compare voices which would prove you were aware enough to contact them - not to mention the fact it was paid to yourself), you could be liable for criminal proceedings against yourself for at least assisting or conspiracy. And you'd still be liable for the overpayment as you did receive the funds (and if you're lucky, the court might order you repay it on top of whatever sentence or fine you may receive for the criminal charge they decide on). Probably not a route I would choose.
quote:
Originally posted by tommybanana
They have recently sent me a letter from the Debt Management team in Bradford stating that if I do not repay the sum owed or contact them by August they will liaise with tax authorities here to recover the overpayment......is this correct or a vialed threat?
In short, yes.
Section 29 subsection 3 of the Tax Credits Act ("TCA") allows HMRC to use Part 6 of the Taxes Management Act to, basically, class your tax credit overpayment as a tax underpayment - which opens up "the wrath" of HMRC. And yes, the UK has treaties with the USA allowing them to chase people in the States for tax due. They CAN use the IRS. They CAN use the courts. They CAN get you extradited (if they really wanted it). I hope that answers your question.
quote:
Originally posted by missfroy2
On the issue of recovery - I read the post previously where it appears HMRC have told this group that they wouldn't take further action against someone abroad.
Misinformed adviser(s), no doubt. Realistically, low value overpayments (couple of hundred?) may well be ignored or written off due to cost of recovery. Higher value - depends how suitably bored the Debt Management and Banking team are or how much pressure there is on recovery from Government/media/etc. Remember they have an almost unlimited budget they don't have to justify - and they do like to use it now and again.
quote:
Originally posted by tommybanana
Am I right in thinking that it is too late to submit a retro renewal form now?
You are correct. Section 17 subs 2(a) of TCA requires that you must reply "by the date specified for the purposes of this subsection", which is currently (and has always been) July 31st following the end of the appropriate tax year (although they do tend to allow a couple of weeks grace as "good will" before they start culling claims and refusing S17 declarations - they aren't all bad!). Only if you have a very good reason will they consider accepting one afterwards.
The fact you had a second S17 issued to you would suggest to me you contacted them prior to July 31st (most likely beginning of July at the latest, to allow for the issue and return timescale) to mention you hadn't received it. You'd be struggling to use that as an option now.
To end it all, my advice would be contact them and arrange repayment - assuming the amount is correctly due (something for others to help you ascertain or confirm). You will generally find them quite reasonable when it comes to setting up repayment plans. I have heard of people paying back at rates of £10 per week until 2018 and beyond. Of course, they may ask you to complete a means test.
Although you perhaps have little to lose by waiting until you receive your Section 29(3) letter, assuming they have your USA address. They can't charge interest on it until the S29(3) is issued so it won't get any bigger - and could go away (stranger things have happened).
As a final note, if HMRC say they "can" or "may" do something, in general, they can. I perhaps wouldn't take everything call centre staff say as gospel (there's no dispute that agent education varies vastly), but if it's on paper - it's generally truth. Just remember, they have no reason to lie - and if they did (and the media found out) - they'd be in "a whole world of ****". HMRC are usually quite well behaved in that respect.
Excuse the lengthy post.
(Please note: this is to be treated only as opinion and by no means legal advice. If you are in any doubt, you should contact a suitably qualified legal professional - with appropriate liability insurance.  )
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 31/07/2008 : 07:39:02
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Thanks for a very comprehensive reply, TFG. I can see why you are discouraging Tommybanana to mention his late father’s role in setting up his tax credits. I would see some mitigating circumstances in this (TB’s underlying entitlement), but we have to see it as HMRC would, and they are not exactly renown for their compassion and empathy. It’s certainly a bit of a mess!
Thanks for helpfully quoting subsection 3 of the Tax Credits Act which ”allows HMRC to use Part 6 of the Taxes Management Act to, basically, class your tax credit overpayment as a tax underpayment – [to open] up "the wrath" of HMRC.”. This, of course, is the underlying problem we all have – easier to justify when there seems to be something not quite right about the claim and the claimant’s intentions (eg. some dishonesty) – but in my view a real travesty of justice for the vast majority of fully compliant, honest claimants who accepted their awards in good faith. Basically, a ‘benefit’ has been entrusted to tax collectors who have a disproportionate amount of power and absolution from the usual accountability ‘professionals’ and experts usually have, and as a result, claimants become unfairly responsible for all these tax officials’ errors – just as though the overpayment were unpaid tax! Please see ‘latest news’ on the ‘Home’ page for a discussion of the inappropriateness of this for the vast majority of claimants. It is ‘taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut’ in most situations, and we have been told by legal experts that HMRC is fettering its discretion, which is so reluctantly used (usually under duress or in situations of embarrassing publicity for HMRC, or where there is a very assertive MP involved, volumes of correspondence, or a real threat of legal action against HMRC – hardly ‘discretion’ in the way a layperson would understand it) as to be hardly worth having. The idea of administering a benefit like a tax has been described as “a failure of sociological competence”, and yesterday’s Financial Times carries a good article on the way tax credits were rushed out without properly being thought through, when lessons should have been learned from the debacle in Australia (which ran a very similar system which had already failed spectacularly in the same way as ours now has, and from which any sensible government would have drawn a useful warning, had they chose to heed it). This is a case of Corporate Negligence if ever I have seen one, and we were clearly set up to fail. Fortunately the Opposition and rebel Labour MPs with some vestigal integrity now know this and can act accordingly, so I heartily thank the Financial Times for that…
You are quite right, TFG, in reminding us that when HMRC feel they have something to collect, a shattered reputation to defend, lies of their own to cover up, or are on a vendetta (see the Tax Hell site accessible via Ken Frost’s ‘HMRConline’ site), ‘they have an almost unlimited budget they don't have to justify - and they do like to use it now and again.’ So the HMRC and Nu Labour rhetoric of ‘protecting the public purse’ is basically bull**** – as we have known from the outset. This is why HMRC have never done a moment’s work in costing out how much recovering blood from stones in the form of overpaid tax credits actually costs – because they don’t give a flying fork! This is why HMRC would sooner go to the expense and trouble of fighting a claimant through each and every successive stage of the dispute process right through its own ‘judge and jury’ initial automated-response rulings all the way through to the Adjudicator (largely an in-house outfit reputed to employ HMRC staff and uncritically applying all its Tax Law dispute rules anyway) and the Ombudsman, when the sums involved can be significantly lower than our supporters have calculated the recovery costs to be! That’s why my friend was told she owed nothing earlier this year, after years of mistreatment and bureaucratic bunglings, only to be treated yesterday to a visit for a spruce, if embarrassed, HMRC Debt Recovery Official who had never been told the ‘debt’ was written off and was demanding over £2000 from her! How much did his unnecessary visit cost? He was a pleasant and sympathetic man who was clearly uncomfortable with his role, I have to say, and made comments about his job that I will not repeat here, not least because this man had a conscience and shouldn’t be penalized for that. TFG, I won’t try to ‘draw’ you, but I suspect that you too are a (yet another) HMRC officer with some sympathies towards the public that you have perhaps found yourself paid to persecute, and my criticisms here – as I hope you have guessed – are directed at this commonly cruel and oppressive system and not you. We need people with your courage and integrity to APPLY DISCRETION at every opportunity and to change the system from within!
I’m amazed that TB is even contemplating sending a ‘retro renewal form now’, as I am a jubilant escapee of the system, and would never, ever, ever submit a tax credit claim form again. As I have now told my MP and Jane Kennedy, shamelessly plagiarizing another tax credit casualty’s remarks, ‘I would sooner sell my body or a kidney, as it would be less humiliating, dangerous and painful’. I am so, so grateful that I don’t live on the breadline and have the luxury others here don’t have of being able to tell Jane Kennedy et al exactly what they can do with their hellish tax credit ‘system’.
TFG, I can see why you are advocating that TB “contact [HMRC} and arrange repayment” , and like you will leave it to others better clued-up than me to advise TB of other alternatives in this situation that they may see, but I have to contradict you when you say “You will generally find them quite reasonable when it comes to setting up repayment plans. I have heard of people paying back at rates of £10 per week until 2018 and beyond. Of course, they may ask you to complete a means test.” A friend of a friend is a young woman who is now going to be paying back an innocently accepted yet overpaid tax credit until she is 93! 93!!!!!! This woman asks my friend, ‘What incentive have I now got to work? I will be poor till I die”, and the poor bugger is right! Thanks to Brown and his rotten, ill-begotten tax credits, this young woman’s future is blighted before it begins! And as the TCC-supportive Conservative Candidate for my area’s extremely marginal Nu Labour seat pointed out, how much is it going to cost ‘the public purse’ to have tax officials monitor this woman’s repayments for probably the next SEVENTY years? I have yet to hear from any claimant who has had the indignity of a ‘hardship’ test on their income who has ever found HMRC to consider all their expenditure properly, rather than separating out ‘essential’ from ‘non-essential’ bills. I doubt very much, for instance, if HMRC would take into account vet bills for an aging family pet, and their idea of an income which can be lived on will almost certainly differ from ours. Then again, that would be the verdict of an organization which sees a non-claimant-fault/accidental overpayment as an unpaid tax, and therefore a ‘priority’ debt, so we are back again to one of the fundamental flaws of the tax credit system – that for all the rhetoric that it was “Money with your name on it”, it was actually conceived under tax legislation and is not the benefit it is commonly assumed to be.
Finally, TFG, “Just remember, they have no reason to lie - and if they did (and the media found out) - they'd be in "a whole world of ****". HMRC are usually quite well behaved in that respect.” is something I would love to believe in, but have found to be untrue. Why does anyone lie? To cover up. To protect a reputation. To gain the advantage. To be able to continue with actions which might be deemed too ruthless otherwise. To protect careers. To create the illusion that the person or organisation is less flawed and at fault than it really is, etc., etc. I too once thought HMRC wouldn’t lie. I now have proof that they bl@@dy well do! This post is way too long already, so I will leave it to others - if they wish to - to tell you some of the ways in which HMRC do lie. I also wrote a letter to Richard Summersgill last year pointing out that his Official Mr Gordon had written a letter to me which was full of lie upon lie upon lie. I have had no proper reply to this, and probably never shall. My tax credit overpayment has now been written off – thank God – and I am not a vengeful person but want only truth and justice, so I have not insisted on a reply. But they lie. Please also see last week’s Sunday Times to see just how honest and “well behaved” HMRC actually is. TFG, I would trust your honesty and fairness implicitly, but please don’t assume that because you are straightforward and not deceitful, your colleagues and the higher echelons are likewise. I live for the day when the Media uncovers as much as there is to uncover about HMRC and the government’s many “reason[s] to lie”, because I am awaiting the moment when they find themselves in that “whole world of ****" to which you refer, and are actually compelled to DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT IT!
Gordon Brown’s ship is finally coming home – the scuppered vessel HMRC Tax Credits (The FTC used a phrase I thought I had coined – which gives me some wry pleasure, I have to say – see Ode to Tax Credits II in “Light Relief” at www.taxCC.org ) and hopefully the message, JUSTICE IS AN AMNESTY, will be driven home soon, too.
Sorry to be long-winded, but I see a great potential resource and ally in you, TFG, and would as soon have you up-to-speed on where HMRC rhetoric departs from (good) practice as to let you labour (no pun intended) under the misconception that that organization – even if it is your own – is fair and just. It can be, but commonly it is not. I don’t make these claims lightly, but based on the evidence of the countless people who contact us every day to tell us of fresh HMRC outrages and whose lives are often left in tatters. Please help us – from the inside and with caution for your own neck (HMRC don't like their officials to support or consort with us, it's fair to warn you) – to change this for every honest and innocent claimant’s sake. It breaks my heart to see claimants hounded into despair and suicidality and know that justice and truth are daily sacrificed to protect the reputations of some very powerful men. And I mean “men”. They will know who they are.
Thanks for your support. I have always believed it will take every avenue we have - legal action, public opinion, collective resistence, networking and research uncovering the massive scale of the problems, action from MPs, Media support and the courage of HMRC workers who abhor the way they have to treat us - to get this system changed. We are going to win justice - it is purely a question of when, and who we lose by the wayside from the stress of it all whilst we fight on.
Trinity: The answer is out there… and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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Abroad and in need of help!
