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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
 Posted - 24/05/2009 : 06:13:51
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i have just received a rejection letter in reply to my dispute form .the year in question is 04/05. i sent back my claim form in july 05 fully completed with income details.i have a copy of it.they say some info was missing. it was not. they had a query re whether i was employed or self employed but did not send me a letter to ask me to confirm whether i had filled in my income in the correct box until march 06!! i had filled in the correct box! but they did not set my payments up based on the info on that form until sept 06 causing an overpayment.they carried on using out of date info.despite having a correctly and fully filled in form received within the correct time limits. help what do i do now?
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2009 : 07:39:37
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| sorry i meant the year in question is 05/06!my renewal claim form sent back in july o5 had my actual income (not estimated) for tax year 04/05 so should have been used to set payments for 05/06.but this was not acted on and they kept paying based on 03/04.looking back at my old paperwork i did not appear to have received an award notice (but really didn't notice at the time) so had nothing to check! |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2009 : 07:57:30
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I don't know what to advise you here, so I am asking others more in the know! I think it's quite common for HMRC to hang on to old figures - for what reason I don't know. But I am sure someone will...
Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2009 : 08:42:26
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| as the tax credit office didn't act on information i gave them then surely they did not meet all their resposibilities which include "we should accurately record and use the information you give us to work out your tax credits and pay you the correct amount" |
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samthe
Rank; Private Primate
188 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2009 : 21:44:57
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You mentioned in your earlier post that you have screen prints, so I assume you have done a SARN. If not, you should do one -& make sure you ask for full screen prints as well as everything else.
From what you say, TCO did not meet their responsibilities. The problem is that - in their world (which is not where the rest of us live!) - if you also did not meet all your responsibilities they still treat the overpayment as recoverable!
So you need to do the best you can to demonstrate that you did meet all responsibilities. These include checking all award notices and making sure the figures etc. on them are correct, & notifying TCO of any errors. So if you did get award notices & they were wrong & you did not tell them then you are liable (under their absurd rules - after all, if you gave them the right info. & they processed it wrongly then rationally it would be assumed they had some responsibility!).
If you think you did not get some of the award notices you could try ringing them & asking for the dates award notices were sent to you & what was on them. I'm not sure you will get anywhere with this though.
Even if they did delay in processing your information, the strong likelihood is that they will have issued an award notice when they eventually did process it so I'm afraid you may have an uphill struggle.
Once you are certain about all the facts, you could see your MP & point out the gross unfairness of the system and see if he/she is willing/able to take you case up. |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2009 : 10:01:53
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thank you
i did not get any award notices from july 05 (when i sent in renewal form) and march 06 when they actioned it.they said my renewal form was incomplete but i have a copy of it and it is complete and correct and this is what they used to set the award. the big problem being the delay which caused another year of overpayments. |
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Alan the Geordie
Da Purple one
2787 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2009 : 14:19:55
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Question:
Have you done a SARN or not?
"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible
reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."
Adolf Hitler |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2009 : 20:07:31
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yes and i didn't get any communication at all between july o5 when i sent back my renewal form and march 06
the letter said my overpayments were due to late notification of earnings NOT TRUE. |
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samthe
Rank; Private Primate
188 Posts |
Posted - 25/05/2009 : 21:12:01
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1. It seems the copy of the renewal you have is one you took before sending it back, because you say it is complete & TCO say what they got was not complete. So I assume there was not one in the SARN bundle? If so, you must go back and ask for one, as they should have it on file. This will show whether it was complete. Also it may be date stamped, which could be valuable to you as proof that you did send it in by the time limit.
2. Yesterday I wrote this:
"Even if they did delay in processing your information, the strong likelihood is that they will have issued an award notice when they eventually did process it so I'm afraid you may have an uphill struggle."
I should make it clear that if they did delay in acting on your renewal (& this can be proved) you should not be responsible for any overpayment up to the time they sent you an amended award notice (presumably March 06). It the amended notice was wrong and you did not notify them that it was, then you are likely to be liable for overpayment from the date you received it.
3. 2 above assumes you did not get any earlier award notice for 05-06 (i.e. that the earliest one you got for that year was in March 06). If you did get one (in or before July 05 as you say you had nothing from them between then & March 06) & it was wrong, then you are likely to be liable if you did not tell them of the error.
4. Does the CD of the calls give any information to support what you are saying?
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2009 : 18:23:17
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the copy of the renewal is the one they sent me back with the SARN bundle.They said in their letter they received it on 26th july but it was partially completed. i have now sent them a copy of this back to prove it was complete.in march 06 they sent an enquiry form wanting to verify whether i had put our earnings in the correct boxes ie employed or self employed. i sent back their form saying that i had put the earnings in the correct boxes. so this seems to be when they decided my form was now complete!
the award notice was correct as i didn't get it until march 06 after they had made those extra enquiries by which time a significant overpayment had accrued as they were still using figures 2 years old.i had an overpayment in 04/05 which i accept as earnings had gone up since 03/04 but if they had acted on my info given in july 05 i wouldn't have had another years overpayment added to the first one! |
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samthe
Rank; Private Primate
188 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2009 : 21:26:13
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| OK - it looks like they didn't bother to look at the renewal form before telling you it was incomplete! Now you have sent it back, hopefully they will accept it was not your error and agree the overpayment should not be recovered as they did not meet their responsibilities. |
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missfroy2
Rank; Captain Gordon
236 Posts |
Posted - 28/05/2009 : 22:16:09
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Hi
Did you receive any award notices between July (when you sent the renewal form back) and March when the income was corrected?
If you are not sure you can try asking the helpline to look on the system to see if any were issued during that period.
If no award notices were issued, then it seems you have a strong case for saying you met your responsibilities (sending the form back completed and answering the enquiry form) whilst HMRC failed to meet theres by not processing the information you had given them.
However, it could be that a smaller part of the overpayment has accrued from April - July, and for that you would need to show you gave them your updated income in the April (or before).
If you did receive an award notice after July 26th which showed your old income, HMRC will argue that you also failed in your responsibilities by not checking the award notice and informing them of the error. This is used a lot in disputes, so worth bearing in mind and double checking so you know what to expect.
MF2 |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 29/05/2009 : 13:27:49
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thank you all so much!
i accept i will not get overpayment written off between april and july but am determined to get it back from july 05 to march 06!
i def did not get an award notice between those dates.
i have pointed out to them that they failed to meet their resposibilties by not processing my information.
watch this space!
oh also have sent copies of it all to my MP ! |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2009 : 18:43:56
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have just received another reply from tax credit people which is absolute nonsense!
firstly they say the reason we were overpaid in 2005-2006 was because we were paid based on incorrect information.if we had told them that our award notice in aug 2004 was incorrect then they could have adjusted their records and our payment for 2005-2006 would have been based on accurate figures thus reducing potential overpayment.
But they have missed a year here?!
our award notice for aug 2004 was correct as it was our figures for year ending april 2004.
our payments for 2005-2006 should be based on income for year ending 2005 not 2004!
they agree i sent back declaration july 05.
but say they had to send us several letters to clarify details on the declaration and then had to phone us (did not mention dates of these letters of course!)because the first letter they sent was 1st march 2006 eight months after receiving declaration! i replied 14 march which they stamped received 16 march then on 22 march they sent another letter asking for reply to the first letter even though they had reply for a week already!i returned this one too which they stamped received 29 march!
so have sent letter back asking why it took them 8 months to raise query with me and how could i have been expected to know that they had a query in the first place.and if they had processed my paperwork shortly after getting it in july 2005 then the overpayment would not have occurred therefore it is their fault.
it really makes me cross when they infer that i did not respond to their letters not true!
the person who replied to my letter seems to be in a total muddle and not too sure what i should do now! help? |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2009 : 18:36:54
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have just received cd of my phone calls.
i rang twice once in aug and once in sept to say i had not heard from them and confirming income. was told in sept that they would do it manually after 30 sept.
next contact from them was march 06 asking for the info that i had already given them by now 3 times!!
hence overpaid for all that time.
surely they haven't a leg to stand on??
my mp has written them a first class letter also so now waiting again. |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2009 : 18:38:09
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| cd is great as i had forgotten about the calls i had made to them chasing them up!! |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 07:38:53
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Hi Patriciahirstpink, if you have been "chasing them up", it seems that HMRC won't have fulfilled all their responsibilities (quoted below):
HM Revenue and Customs should:
o Give correct advice
o Record and use information accurately
o Correct errors notified by claimant
o Update reported changes in circumstances within 30 days
The main responsibilities for the claimant (from 1 February 2008) are to:
o Give accurate, complete and up to date information
o Report changes in circumstances
o Use the checklist to check every award notice
o Tell HMRC of errors in an award notice within 1 month
o Check that amounts received agree with the award notice
If you've had to keep nagging them, did they really "Record and use information accurately", "Correct errors notified by claimant" or even "Update reported changes in circumstances within 30 days"?
As Samthe has said earlier, "you need to do the best you can to demonstrate that you did meet all responsibilities. These include checking all award notices and making sure the figures etc. on them are correct, & notifying TCO of any errors. So if you did get award notices & they were wrong & you did not tell them then you are liable (under their absurd rules - after all, if you gave them the right info. & they processed it wrongly then rationally it would be assumed they had some responsibility!)."
Personally, I only think that HMRC can hold you to "Give accurate, complete and up to date information" and "Report changes in circumstances" (although with HMRC's guidance often being poor, claimants don't always know what constitutes a Change of Circumstances, and can certainly argue this). As to the other claimant "responsibilities" - fine if you've actually beensent a checklist, but these were a later introduction and these responsibilities are retrospective, which is clearly unfair. I think you can argue that if you weren't warned of these in advance and that you would be held accountable for repaying all or part of an overpayment as a result, you can claim it is HMRC's fault not yours - they failed to "give correct information".
In my view you need to spell out their failings and where they did not meet their responsibilities, as HMRC tends to look longer and harder at what we have done or haven't done than at their role in things. Even if they do spot mistakes, their rulebook says they should only bring up issues identified and raised by the claimant/customer! So you need to show them that you have already seen things that they did not do properly. This way, you might perhaps get some honesry and transparency, and a good result. Good luck!
Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 07:46:56
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People do seem to be winning cases now with HMRC admitting "we failed to meet some of our responsibilities...." which is good - although we still hear of their old trick of admitting fault yet blaming us. This used to be because they thought we should have known our awards were wrong even when they didn't, claiming our belief in our awards being right was "unreasonable". These days I think - but don't know - that it has more to do with their insisting that we failed to meet one of our responsibilities - probably one of those last three written late in the day by HMRC, with many claimants receiving overpayments dating from before those responsibilities were written or made known to us!
It has to be fiercely fought, as clearly it is unacceptable that we are still paying back due to their errors!
Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 14:01:22
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i sent my last letter back to them on 14 june and still have not had a reply.
is this normal?
in the mean time iam still not receiving my £ 10 odd per week child tax credit. should they be paying this.
they are obviously keeping it to offset the overpayment. |
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patriciahirstpink
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector
18 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2009 : 14:08:58
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| i meant to ask whether i should write again now i have the cd or wait to see waht their answer is to my prevoius letter and then if its still no then quote the telephone call transcripts.?? |
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Ali M-W
Da Tech(y ones)
3296 Posts |
Posted - 14/07/2009 : 07:19:53
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Hi Patriciahirstpink. In answer to your first question, it's quite usual to be kept waiting weeks if not months for a reply. Sadly, HMRC has two speeds: lightening speed for threats, recovery, court action and occasionally (though they say in Parliament that they don't)sending bailiffs (judging by a recent post on these pages); and then snail's pace for replies to our letters, explanations of what went wrong, and actions such as reinstating tax credits or offering apologies.
Normally I would advise just waiting for HMRC to reply, if only so that you can reclaim your life and not have to spend every spare moment compliling letters to officials who don't actually care and won't ever properly respond. However, the situation is different if there's money at stake. You could ask them why they have not paid you your £10 a week child tax credit and point out to them that they cannot use this to recover any moneys whilst you are in dispute.
Personally, I would separate out the "why aren't you paying me?" letters from the dispute itself, if only to encourage a faster response in reinstating your tax credit payment, as I don't much rate HMRC when it comes to multi-tasking. In the early days I thought it sufficient to write a complaint letter which also sought answers to questions, without plastering "complaint" all over it in large red letters, but apparently (unless things have changed) HMRC cannot recognise how some letters need to get treated as complaints as well as requests for reconsidering recovery of an overpayment. So these days I try to keep correspondence with HMRC simple and obvious. It's no good inferring complaints or having anything subtle in your letter which isn't spelled out, or it will just get missed and overlooked.
So by all means write to them asking for reinstatement of your child tax credit. But I would recommend adding "cc" at the bottom of your letter and putting your MP's name there, and also sending a copy with a covering note to your MP. That way, HMRC can see that you are keeping them ti task and will know that your MP is aware that you have made certain requests which, if not followed through, should lead to a complaint and perhaps some ministerial correspondence. I personally think we under-use our MPs. Let's give them something to do to earn their free TVs, massage chairs, lovely clean moats, etc.
Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. |
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do i have a case?
