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brewster
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector


United Kingdom
13 Posts

Posted - 24/02/2010 :  15:05:20  Show Profile Send brewster a Private Message
Hi does anyone know how to find out if an overpayment has been written off,( without actually contacting them, dont want to upset the apple cart)letters have gone back and forth including ones from my MP to no avail, and was told I still owe the 1700.

However my last letter about this was in 2007,and apart from my annual review papers in July 09 where this amount was still shown as outstanding ,I have had no further correpondance at all.

I have also read the topic on them ringing you up out of the blue, can they do this? as their code of practice Guidance for intermediaries and advisers on how HMRC handle tax credit overpayments, gives them a procedure I presume they have to follow

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DazeDandConfuseD
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



11 Posts

Posted - 24/02/2010 :  16:29:33  Show Profile Send DazeDandConfuseD a Private Message
I'm not sure, but from personal experience, i wouldnt hold my breath.

I have been claiming CTC from my daughters birth in Sept. 2004.
I was originally living with my parents so had a single claim, myself and my partner got a house together in November 2004 therefore we started claiming as a couple.
I had been claiming Income Support as i cant work due to illness, therfore i made a joint claim with the DSS, they said they would inform CTC and Child benefit office and that i should do the same. I did via telephone and by letter. As i started receiving correspondance to my new address as far as i was concerned the matter had been addressed.
I received my end of year review form for CTC, and it had no mention of my partner. I called them and asked why this was and informed them that his details should also be on the claim as i had telephoned them and sent a letter to inform them of the change in cicumstances.
The guy on the phone asked if i was still in receipt on income support and if it had changed at all during the claim period, i said no everything was still the same except that it was now a joint claim instead of a single one (which i informed them of in November 2004).
He said that it was probably due to a technical error as they had experience problems before and that because i was claiming IS, the entitlement i had as a single person, and the entitlement we would have had as a couple would be approximately the same, therfore he said : you owe us money for the single claim, but we owe you for a joint claim therfore the amounts would cancel each other out.
We went through different official processes just to keep ourselves right and disputed the overpayment, and heard nothing back. Therfore as far as we were concerned it must have been resolved
- how WRONG !
Last week i received a call form the CTC overpayment dept.
I suffer from mental helth problems and have severe clinical depression making it virtually impossible to talk on the phone, especially unexpectedly as it causes me distress and panic attacks.
My partner spoke to them and relayed all the details from the previous correspondance we had with them, and they basically didnt want to hear it. No matter what we said they just ignored it and demanded the money be repayed. My partner said we would not repay money which was accrued due to their mistake, the woman said so you refuse to pay this ? and hung up. They were not interested whatsoever in our side of the story just adamant that we had to pay back almost 1300 that we were supposedly overpaid.
Today i received a letter entitled "notice of legal proceedings" saying they would apply for a summary warrant to recover the amount.
Again my partner phoned the number and was told that they couldnt do anything, and to contact the CTC advice line. We did and hit another brick wall. This lady, and i use that term loosely was an arrogant so an so. Again my partner explained the circumstances, to which she replied that informing them of the change after receiving the review form was not good enough. My partner explained that we contacted them well before this to inform them of the change (in November 2004), and that they failed to act upon the information, which was not our fault and we were not liable for there lack of action. Again she was adamant we were in the wrong, wouldnt let my partner put our point across at all and was absolutely dismissive of anything we said.
She actually hung up on us, and i can assure you that nothing that was said was offensive in the slightest as i was sitting right there by the phone, she basically just didnt like us having a different opinion from her and hung up !
She didnt even give us the address to dispute the overpayment, therfore we had to call again to have them send out a form which they said they will do.
With the first person we also asked what information was on file for this claim as we had sent a number of letters and made loads of phonecalls regarding it and she said they didnt have info for that far back, only that the overpayment team had started recovery.
I still cant get any straight answers from them as to why the debt is oustanding, even after being told by them that it would be cancelled.
They arent interested in anything we have to say, only that the debt is to be paid back.
I am on Income support and have been since the claim started, we are already struggling financially due to the state of the economy, so where the heck they expect me to materealise 1300 from i do not know.
I am going out of my mind with worry and have started feeling suicidal again because of it all.
What they dont seem to grasp is that i informed them first off about the change in 2004 by writing them a letter and calling them stating my address had changed and that i was now living with my partner, which apparantly they failed to act upon.
As far as i was aware it had been ammended as my letters started going to my new address instead of my old one.
As soon as i realised there was a mistake made (on the end of year review form) I contacted them and informed them of this,
otherwise they would have been none the wiser.
If i had intentionally made a false claim why on earth would i then contact them at the end of it to tell them the information they held was wrong, anyone in that position would keep their mouth shut and get away with it, and then simply adjust the claim to a joint one for the next year,
not highlight it to them and bring it to their attention when they obviously werent aware of it.
This was in 2004, and they have come back to me now 6 years later demanding money i dont have.
It makes me wish that i was not the honest person that i am and kept my mouth shut, they say honesty is the best policy but in this case i have to wonder.
The woman on the phome even had the cheek to say that we could have had the joint claim backdated, but only if within 3 months. We asked well why where we not informed of this at the time then, and she had no answer.
As usual, they ommit information where it suits them and then come back to you 6 years later after you think things have been sorted but refuse to give you any answers or information, just demands !!

I wish you luck with your situation, and hope the same doesnt happen to you.






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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 25/02/2010 :  08:07:26  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Just quickly for now, if you get phoned by HMRC/the TCO, please read this:

You must be logged in to see this link.

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 25/02/2010 :  08:10:02  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
You could also contact Katie Waring, who works for the Lib Dems; she wants to know about the scandal of court action being taken against people who are in dispute, as the Lib Dems want this exposed. If you contact me on ali@taxcc.org I will send you her contact details.

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 25/02/2010 :  08:11:27  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Just wondered, if you sent off a(nother) SARN request now, that call could be on it? Would be good to evidence what was said to you, if there was a way.

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 25/02/2010 :  15:46:30  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by brewster

Hi does anyone know how to find out if an overpayment has been written off,( without actually contacting them, don't want to upset the apple cart)letters have gone back and forth including ones from my MP to no avail, and was told I still owe the 1700.

However my last letter about this was in 2007,and apart from my annual review papers in July 09 where this amount was still shown as outstanding ,I have had no further correspondence at all.

I have also read the topic on them ringing you up out of the blue, can they do this? as their code of practice Guidance for intermediaries and advisers on how HMRC handle tax credit overpayment's, gives them a procedure I presume they have to follow



Hi Brewster

HMRC can move the goal posts at anytime, even though there are procedures to follow, they always have a reason as why they were not followed.
I understand you not wanting to contact them, in case you re-wake the matter, but from past experiences if you owe then they will try to collect at some point.
You say that the last correspondence you have regarding this 1700 overpayment was in 2007, but it still showed on your 09 review papers. Do you still get paid any tax credits?? If this amount is still showing then to me this amount is still in dispute.
If you have not had any letter from them with regards to the outcome of the dispute and their reasons as why you should repay then this is what you are awaiting for first?

With regards to HMRC contacting you out of the blue. Yes, this now seems the way the Debt Management Team are working. So if it does happen to you, prepare yourself.



Splashin
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 26/02/2010 :  07:25:28  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
If the Debt Management Team are acting in this way now, can't we flag it up to our MPs and get some questions asked in the house? Isn't this just a means of bullying innocent people? Would the DWP do this for overpaid Income Support or DLA? I think not!

Shouldn't the LITRG or Child Povert action group be advised about this?

Is there someone with recent experience of this tactic willing to speak up about it, even anonymously, so we can expose it and get some answers?

Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it.
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 26/02/2010 :  09:07:11  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by DazeDandConfuseD

I'm not sure, but from personal experience, i wouldn't hold my breath.

I have been claiming CTC from my daughters birth in Sept. 2004.
I was originally living with my parents so had a single claim, myself and my partner got a house together in November 2004 therefore we started claiming as a couple.
I had been claiming Income Support as i cant work due to illness, therefore i made a joint claim with the DSS, they said they would inform CTC and Child benefit office and that i should do the same. I did via telephone and by letter. As i started receiving correspondence to my new address as far as i was concerned the matter had been addressed.
I received my end of year review form for CTC, and it had no mention of my partner. I called them and asked why this was and informed them that his details should also be on the claim as i had telephoned them and sent a letter to inform them of the change in circumstances.
The guy on the phone asked if i was still in receipt on income support and if it had changed at all during the claim period, i said no everything was still the same except that it was now a joint claim instead of a single one (which i informed them of in November 2004).
He said that it was probably due to a technical error as they had experience problems before and that because i was claiming IS, the entitlement i had as a single person, and the entitlement we would have had as a couple would be approximately the same, therefore he said : you owe us money for the single claim, but we owe you for a joint claim therefore the amounts would cancel each other out.
We went through different official processes just to keep ourselves right and disputed the overpayment, and heard nothing back. Therefore as far as we were concerned it must have been resolved
- how WRONG !
Last week i received a call form the CTC overpayment dept.
I suffer from mental health problems and have severe clinical depression making it virtually impossible to talk on the phone, especially unexpectedly as it causes me distress and panic attacks.
My partner spoke to them and relayed all the details from the previous correspondence we had with them, and they basically didn't want to hear it. No matter what we said they just ignored it and demanded the money be re-payed. My partner said we would not repay money which was accrued due to their mistake, the woman said so you refuse to pay this ? and hung up. They were not interested whatsoever in our side of the story just adamant that we had to pay back almost 1300 that we were supposedly overpaid.
Today i received a letter entitled "notice of legal proceedings" saying they would apply for a summary warrant to recover the amount.
Again my partner phoned the number and was told that they couldn't do anything, and to contact the CTC advice line. We did and hit another brick wall. This lady, and i use that term loosely was an arrogant so an so. Again my partner explained the circumstances, to which she replied that informing them of the change after receiving the review form was not good enough. My partner explained that we contacted them well before this to inform them of the change (in November 2004), and that they failed to act upon the information, which was not our fault and we were not liable for there lack of action. Again she was adamant we were in the wrong, wouldn't let my partner put our point across at all and was absolutely dismissive of anything we said.
She actually hung up on us, and i can assure you that nothing that was said was offensive in the slightest as i was sitting right there by the phone, she basically just didn't like us having a different opinion from her and hung up !
She didn't even give us the address to dispute the overpayment, therefore we had to call again to have them send out a form which they said they will do.
With the first person we also asked what information was on file for this claim as we had sent a number of letters and made loads of phone calls regarding it and she said they didn't have info for that far back, only that the overpayment team had started recovery.
I still cant get any straight answers from them as to why the debt is outstanding, even after being told by them that it would be canceled.
They aren't interested in anything we have to say, only that the debt is to be paid back.
I am on Income support and have been since the claim started, we are already struggling financially due to the state of the economy, so where the heck they expect me to materialize 1300 from i do not know.
I am going out of my mind with worry and have started feeling suicidal again because of it all.
What they don't seem to grasp is that i informed them first off about the change in 2004 by writing them a letter and calling them stating my address had changed and that i was now living with my partner, which apparently they failed to act upon.
As far as i was aware it had been amended as my letters started going to my new address instead of my old one.
As soon as i realized there was a mistake made (on the end of year review form) I contacted them and informed them of this,
otherwise they would have been none the wiser.
If i had intentionally made a false claim why on earth would i then contact them at the end of it to tell them the information they held was wrong, anyone in that position would keep their mouth shut and get away with it, and then simply adjust the claim to a joint one for the next year,
not highlight it to them and bring it to their attention when they obviously weren't aware of it.
This was in 2004, and they have come back to me now 6 years later demanding money i don't have.
It makes me wish that i was not the honest person that i am and kept my mouth shut, they say honesty is the best policy but in this case i have to wonder.
The woman on the phone even had the cheek to say that we could have had the joint claim backdated, but only if within 3 months. We asked well why where we not informed of this at the time then, and she had no answer.
As usual, they omit information where it suits them and then come back to you 6 years later after you think things have been sorted but refuse to give you any answers or information, just demands !!

I wish you luck with your situation, and hope the same doesn't happen to you.



Hello DazeDandConfuseD

I would get your partner to send in a SARN to HMRC, this will confirm the date he was entered onto NTC core. It may show that he was put onto the system in Nov 2004 but never processed until the end of year declaration was completed.



Splashin
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DazeDandConfuseD
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



11 Posts

Posted - 26/02/2010 :  13:12:03  Show Profile Send DazeDandConfuseD a Private Message
Hi thank you.

I have used the template SAR form and will post it off, recorded delivery over the next few days.


Thing is the guy i first spoke to mentioned the communication, since then they have written it off like it didnt happen,
Makes me wonder what they will in fact omit if it benefits them.

Worth a try though so will wait and see what it says.

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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 26/02/2010 :  21:22:37  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
<< Makes me wonder what they will in fact omit if it benefits them. >>

Anything and everything if it benefits them!!


"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions.

In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."

Adolf Hitler
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brewster
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



United Kingdom
13 Posts

Posted - 27/02/2010 :  18:26:07  Show Profile Send brewster a Private Message
Hi
Thanks for all the replies, and no I am not getting any tax credits and havn't done since the overpayment came to light, so I will have to see if they contact.
What might be interesting to know, is after bumping into an old school friend of my daughters she told me she worked for tax credits and has been there about 10 years, I mentioned the overpayment and naturally she said that long ago surely its been written off by now?just ignore everything,which is easier said than done, but she did go on to tell me that she herself had a few hundred pounds overpayment and she hasn't paid that back infact she said there were quite a lot of staff that had overpayments that they hadn't paid back and she mentioned of a friend of hers owed 10000 I done know if this one works in tax credits or not, but it seems to me they want to get their own house in order I bet they dont get calls at their desks from the recovery team, in fact after hearing all this I bet there are people on the recovery team who owe overpayments as well, I may well meet with someone else yet I'll let you know, keep up the good fight, and roll on the election

Edited by - brewster on 27/02/2010 18:38:06
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2010 :  02:07:33  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
Hi brewster

You say that you are not claiming tax credits at present. Have your circumstances changed?
If you still have eligibility to claim tax credits ie. children under 16yrs or low income, then your claim should never have stopped. If it has stopped then this is due to the annual declaration not being completed by the deadline. If this is the scenario, then HMRC demand back the full tax years money paid to you.
When is the overpayment from, what tax year does it occur?
What reason does HMRC give you for the overpayment occurring in the 1st place?



Splashin
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brewster
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



United Kingdom
13 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2010 :  10:58:48  Show Profile Send brewster a Private Message
Hi,
The claim was for my son who was off work for over 12 months, with his dissability, I did all the claims on line, and did as they asked gave them the correct figures of his previous year P45's, I stupidly thought that they worked on the previous years earnings, as this is what they asked for, it was when he went back to work that the problem arose, with believing that it was the previous years earnings, I presumed that his payment would continue for that year and then cease the following,I stupid was I, I know now this was a stupid mistake, and honestly didn't notice that on the the award the figures I had given them were correct, but they put a different tax year, I did ring them when I realised that was what had happened and was just told that they had recently changed this, I presume he meant that they did work on previous years and this had altered, and they would send a form out,and so the saga continues. the thing that annoys me the most is that when I applied on line, for the three years concerned, is that not once on the application did it say your award is calculated on your present earnings, all they asked for was the previous years earnings,and I gave the correct figures every time. naturally when he went back to work his earnings rose and and this is when the overpayment arose, and he was no longer eligible for Tax Credits, looking back now I wish I had never claimed, and not found tax credits on the internet,it was also very hard to understand even for me who wroked with figures and wages, but some of the awards were saying that they would pay him so much each week through his employer which didnt happen,then they would pay an amount into his bank, in fact the first letter we got about the overpayment said he owed 2000 and odd pounds, Im glad I didn't pay this as the figure now is 1783, so how can anyone follow this, any how will have to wait and see what happens. Keep up the good work.
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