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Ali M-W
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3558 Posts

Posted - 28/03/2008 :  00:05:07  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
We need TCC-sympathetic Labour MPs so that we can start winning some cross-party votes, EDMs etc. We have an abundance of Conservative and Lib Dem MPs backing us, and could really do with some Labour dissidents.

Please could anyone with a Labour MP sound them out about general support for an Amnesty or a fairer system, with the onus on HMRC to prove us negligent rather on us to prove we did everything right - when they hold all the evidence we need?

We need more Labour supporters to make a difference.

Morpheus: as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up and neither can we.

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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2008 :  17:07:59  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Okay, thanks to Red Rocket, we now have a list of Rebel Labour MPs who are not afraid to oppose their leader and act on their own consciences. Now we just need to contact them and gain their support for the TCC!

You must be logged in to see this link.


Morpheus: as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up and neither can we.
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 31/03/2008 :  00:18:36  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
<<Please could anyone with a Labour MP sound them out about general support for an Amnesty>>

Ali, a snowballs chance in hell, no labour luvvie is going to suggest because they would be de-selected. Also, as I have said before I do not like the word 'Amnesty' because it implies wrong doing in the past...but 'I have gone straight now'

The amnesty thing should be dropped at once. It sends wrong messages to the voting public. I, like most here have done nothing wrong, if anyone needs amnesty it is hmrc, not me and people like me.

I'm not ever ever going to beg 'to be let off'..I have done nothing wrong. Please quash the amnesty argument, it will not work.
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 31/03/2008 :  00:39:01  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
In plain terms- amnesty means a pardon for wrong doings.

BIG BAD IDEA imho. No government on Earth would grant an amnesty. They need challeging through correct and proper legal channels. I believe it can be done but very expensively through the echr.

In actual fact it would be a hollow victory because the uk government would escape with the argument 'a european decision, not ours'

There would be outcry, but you know what, labour would spin their way out of trouble..they are experts at it.

I honestly believe the government could not win in the echr, far brighter people than me also agree.

Please drop the amnesty line, I dont want forgiving, just plain old justice.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 31/03/2008 :  02:19:02  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
>>Please drop the amnesty line, I dont want forgiving, just plain old justice.<<

I agree 100% with Sammy on this for the very same reason that he has stated. >>In plain terms- amnesty means a pardon for wrong doings<<

From the Oxford English Dictionary;

amnesty

noun (pl. amnesties) 1 an official pardon for people convicted of political offences. 2 a period where no action is taken against people admitting to particular offences.

The word "amnesty" was therefore an unfortunate choice.

That said, I'm not sure what other word to use!

"Yes, I know I'm a pedantic barsteward!"

Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 31/03/2008 12:45:56
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 31/03/2008 :  08:02:49  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Sammy, thanks for pointing that out. This is a good example of a word which has come to be associated with 'writing off' or 'forgetting the usual rules about', sometimes, rather than the proper meaning you have pointed out here. In my view we can't use it if by doing so we are implying guilt which we don't have. Unfortunately, 'Justice is a write-off' doesn't have quite the same ring. I will point this out to PJ and see what we can do. You're quite right - we don't want to prop up, even unwittingly, the HMRC and government myth that it's all our fault when the system set us up to be in debt.



Morpheus: as long as there is a single breath in his body he'll never give up and neither can we.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 31/03/2008 :  12:17:10  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Thanks for that Ali.

I too did not realise the unfortunate implication of the word until our Friend Sammy pointed it out.

Thanks Sammy!

Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother?
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 31/03/2008 :  14:24:44  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
>> We need TCC-sympathetic Labour MPs so that we can start winning some cross-party votes, EDMs etc.<<

From today's Mirror newspaper;

"Gordon Brown will warn Labour MPs today to "stay focused" if they want to win the next election.

In a rare speech to his backbenchers he will tell them to concentrate on campaigning on the local elections in May.

And he will say it is not the time for rebellions or lack of discipline. It comes as Health Minister Ivan Lewis warned yesterday that Labour was out of touch and ignoring important issues such as crime and immigration."

You must be logged in to see this link.

Find a sympathetic Labour MP now? Fat chance!





Apathy rules OK - so why do I bother?

Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 31/03/2008 14:39:36
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2008 :  19:39:29  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
>>Sammy, thanks for pointing that out. This is a good example of a word which has come to be associated with 'writing off' or 'forgetting the usual rules about'<<

Soz Ali, I do not agree and most strongly; for me an 'amnesty' always means a 'let off for wrong doing'...it is unfortunate, 'amnesty international' is a prime example. I will concur sucking up to third world despots by using 'amnesty' as a bargaining point may succeed in some cases. (tip hat sir, please your godliness let em off!) to some dodgy leaders.. but in a western democracy, oh no! Especially if you have done nothing wrong.

Just by seeking amnesty you have admitted fault at some stage.

I know it will be hard to swallow, but amnesty was a big mistake.
whatamistaketomakea -;) No government will 'let off' the few while trying to console the masses. No chance whatsoever. They will not do it, the tories wouldn't, the libs are still deciding -;)..and still deciding ..and still deciding.-;)

When maybe comes to do something the libs would not do any different (they just take longer to say so)

And to be perfectly blunt I cannot blame them, it is a vote loser for any party.

We are are where we are, 'amnesty' should be replaced with 'justice'

No party could or would argue against justice.

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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2008 :  19:48:34  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
BTW, when I eventually get 'let off' I will send them a thank you note + full access to my arse licking site free of charge. ( I will wave subscriptions) except for hmrc and nu labour, for them it will cost 25.00 per month ; no doubt they could claim on their exes -;)
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PJD
Admin



United Kingdom
281 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2008 :  21:25:32  Show Profile Send PJD a Private Message
I can see the point about the slogan, but its a little difficult to come up with something catchy to describe what we need. And the political phrase for this type of thing is 'Amnesty' even if it does technically imply some type of guilt. Hopefully the juxtaposition of it following the word 'justice' has carried the right message this far.

But before we drop anything, we do need a replacement. We could start a thread for suggestions followed by a poll of the best.

or perhaps, more democratically, a poll first on whether we do drop it.
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  01:03:20  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
Hi pj, I can see where your coming from but justice does not mean amnesty. They are entirely different meanings, I don't mean to be pedantic but we cannot win on an amnesty quest. I guess the government would luv it.. to 'let us off' When in fact it is their wrong doings, not ours. If anyone should be looking for an amnesty it is our own government not us. They are at fault not me not you nor many members on here. And guess what, I wouldn't grant an amnesty to this bunch of bandits no chance whatsoever.

The trouble is the next bunch whom take control will be no better.
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  01:11:30  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
<<'Amnesty' even if it does technically imply some type of guilt>>

PJ, please forgive me but 'Amnesty' says what it is on the tin, there is no 'technically' about it.

I'm not trying to put a play on words, but really ...you cannot defend/change a definition of a word. Only the government can do that -;))

Seriously though, 'amnesty' needs dropping it sends wrong messages
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  01:42:32  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
Ok I've calmed down now, 'Justice is Fair for All' or 'Justice is Being There' or 'Justice Does not Pay' or 'Tax Credits do not Pay'

the list is endless...gazillions of
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Resurgam
Admin



United Kingdom
144 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  02:41:16  Show Profile Send Resurgam a Private Message
Wow! Lots of discussion going on in here .... and the subject of the "Amnesty" thing is too big to ignore - so here's my first instalment:

"Re-Branding" TCC at this stage in the game is something that needs to be thought about very, very carefully. It might be possible for someone to come up with a brilliant, new, slogan - but, even if they do, a lot of thought should be put into whether to change from "Justice is an Amnesty".

Do people simply want their overpayments written-off?

Or do they want their overpayments written off AND for the Government & HMRC to be forced to admit that everything was their fault.

The Government & HMRC already lie through their teeth, eroding our democratic and legal rights, so there is no way that they will admit fault or liability on the overpayment issue. That's small change! The media could maybe make it happen, if enough pressure was applied - but there would probably be a resignation or two, no real details would come out, and the muck would be swept under the carpet. Only history will reveal the truth - probably to our children or grandchildren.

So, is the need to be right greater than the desire to have non-fraudulent overpayments quashed? Mostly, when the need to be seen as right overshadows everything else, the goal is revenge - not justice.

TCC's goal is to have all non-fraudulent overpayments written-off. Should this ever happen, (all Pigs fed and ready to fly!), as an interim measure, the Government may issue an Amnesty to all overpayments - then much later announce the write-offs (probably quietly, just before Parliament dissolves for the summer break).

I think that changing TCC's slogan, because of the word "Amnesty", would be nit picking ....



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n/a
deleted



223 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  20:30:57  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Improper uses of the term
Describing a change in a law which renders innocent actions which previously broke the law. For example, raising the speed limit from 55 to 70 is not "amnesty", even though those who have always gone 65 may now do so innocently. That is simply "changing the law", which is the job of lawmakers. Genuine amnesty is where a particular group of lawbreakers are pardoned for past violations which would otherwise be subject to prosecution.
Referring to imposed lesser sentences or punishments that are not "more than pardon, inasmuch as it obliterates all legal remembrance of the offense" as amnesty.
Often wrongly or purposely used by politicians and/or journalists to denote cases of pardon where offenses are not stricken from the record and individuals proclaimed innocent.[citation needed] Instead, those individuals receive some lesser reprimand or sentence in response to an admission of guilt. Otherwise defined as an act of leniency but not amnesty, per se.
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n/a
deleted



223 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2008 :  20:35:48  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Natural justice
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Natural justice is a legal philosophy used in some jurisdictions in the determination of just, or fair, processes in legal proceedings. The concept is very closely related to the principle of natural law (latin: jus naturale) which has been applied as a philosophical and practical principle in the law in several common law jurisdictions, particularly the UK and Australia.[1][2]

According to Roman law certain basic legal principles are required by nature, or so obvious that they should be applied universally without needing to be enacted into law by a legislator. The assertion in the United States' Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident," expresses some of this sentiment. The rules or principles of natural justice are now regularly applied by the courts in both common law and Roman law jurisdictions. Natural justice operates on the principles that man is basically good, that a person of good intent should not be harmed, and one should treat others as one would like to be treated.[3]

Natural justice includes the notion of procedural fairness and may incorporate the following guidelines:

A person accused of a crime, or at risk of some form of loss, should be given adequate notice about the proceedings (including any charges).
A person making a decision should declare any personal interest they may have in the proceedings.
A person who makes a decision should be unbiased and act in good faith. He therefore can not be one of the parties in the case, or have an interest in the outcome. This is expressed in the latin maxim, nemo judex in sua causa: "no man is permitted to be judge in his own cause".
Proceedings should be conducted so they are fair to all the parties - expressed in the latin maxim audi alteram partem: "let the other side be heard".
Each party to a proceeding is entitled to ask questions and contradict the evidence of the opposing party.
A decision-maker should take into account relevant considerations and extenuating circumstances, and ignore irrelevant considerations.
Justice should be seen to be done. If the community is satisfied that justice has been done, they will continue to place their faith in the courts.[4]
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  23:32:50  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
I think rebranding would be a bad idea, just drop the word amnesty.
Joe public associate the word amnesty with let off...ie another bunch of scroungers pleading for leniency..

The legal jargon surrounding the word can be argued, but it is impossible to alter public concept of the word.

I don't want people to think I have been giving an amnesty, I want them to know hmrc and the government have acted illegally and unfairly.

If thats nit picking sobeit
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2008 :  23:37:27  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
There is no chance whatsoever the government would issue an amnesty the political implications would be massive..ie, out of power without question, perhaps even an early forced election

Edited by - sammy on 04/04/2008 23:37:51
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n/a
deleted



223 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  00:24:27  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Hi sammy
I think you have a point. What do you think to "Natural Justice for Tax Credit Casualties" its a bit longer but if you read the last post from me above it does set it within a legally recognised framework (common law) and a context which I would imagine would satisfy most casualties.

See below some stuff on common law

Common law are laws that have been developed through court decisions rather than through statutes. In common law legal systems, the law is created and/or refined by judges: a decision in the case currently pending depends on decisions in previous cases and affects the law to be applied in future cases. When there is no authoritative statement of the law, common law judges have the authority and duty to make law by creating precedent.[1] The body of precedent is called "common law" and it binds future decisions. In future cases, when parties disagree on what the law is, an idealized common law court looks to past precedential decisions of relevant courts. If a similar dispute has been resolved in the past, the court is bound to follow the reasoning used in the prior decision (this principle is known as stare decisis). If, however, the court finds that the current dispute is fundamentally distinct from all previous cases, it will decide as a "matter of first impression." Thereafter, the new decision becomes precedent, and will bind future courts under the principle of stare decisis.

In practice, common law systems are considerably more complicated than the idealized system described above. The decisions of a court are binding only in a particular jurisdiction, and even within a given jurisdiction, some courts have more power than others. For example, in most jurisdictions, decisions by appellate courts are binding on lower courts in the same jurisdiction and on future decisions of the same appellate court, but decisions of non-appellate courts are only non-binding persuasive authority. Interactions between common law, constitutional law, statutory law and regulatory law also give rise to considerable complexity. However stare decisis, the principle that similar cases should be decided according to similar rules, lies at the heart of all common law systems.

Common law legal systems are in widespread use, particularly in those nations which trace their legal heritage to Britain, including the United Kingdom, most of the United States and Canada, and other former colonies of the British Empire but not in India where legal system goes by written law.




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Resurgam
Admin



United Kingdom
144 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  02:11:07  Show Profile Send Resurgam a Private Message
quote:
I think rebranding would be a bad idea, just drop the word amnesty.
Joe public associate the word amnesty with let off...ie another bunch of scroungers pleading for leniency..

The legal jargon surrounding the word can be argued, but it is impossible to alter public concept of the word.

I don't want people to think I have been giving an amnesty, I want them to know hmrc and the government have acted illegally and unfairly.

If thats nit picking sobeit


Conceded ... If it's very important to a person, then no, it can't be called nit-picking.

Sammy - you have been treated disgracefully by a system that everyone believes is fair. Justice simply did not come into it for you. The population of Britain is mainly blind to what is happening - the Tax man makes his own laws! People can't even see that their rights, and much more, are being slowly eroded by the bunch of self-gratifying pigs that are supposed to be the caretakers of this land and it's people.

But I can't see any way to change the past - and the absolute travesty of Justice that happened in your case. I'm sorry .... and, whether you believe it or not, I think of your injustice - and how I would feel if it was me - every day!

This is a public forum. Keeping on about a "point of order", in public, is destructive to TCC.

If we change the slogan, we re-brand - it's that simple.

I might not make many friends by saying this, but I have always believed in stating the truth: "This discussion is potentially destructive to TCC. It should stop right now! If anyone wants to carry it on - it should be done by e-mail, in private."

And this thread should be deleted .....
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