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chrisp
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector


98 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  18:07:22  Show Profile Send chrisp a Private Message
Brief details of my overpayment.

Lost my job due to Disability in May 2005, told the helpline.

26 10 06 Award notice telling me I had an award of £4,000.

02 1106 I phoned to check as it was the first money we had ever had from them. I was told it was right and to have a good Christmas. I had also noticed an error in our bank details so pointed this out

06 11 06 Award notice showing all our details correctly and repeating the award of £4,000.

29 01 07 Letter asking if we had a change of circumstances and telling us what our annual earnings were, has anything changed?

12 02 07 phoned to tell them my wife had a pay rise £800 pa.

26 02 07 New award notice arrives saying we owe them £4,000

02 03 07 I ring to ask why we now owe them, no explanation other than you owe us. As it is a call centre I kept ringing until I got an answer on the 7th call. Basically on the 26 10 06 our income was inputted into their system as £zero.

09 03 07 registered letter with completed appeal WTC/AP form sent along with COP26 form and photocopies of all notices and letters.

29 03 07 letter from Overpayments Group, We have not made a mistake, the overpayment was due to a technical error. It was not reasonable for you to believe your payments were correct. Excuse me but I did phone on 02 11 06 to question the paymant to be told Have a good Christmas. Also I have no right of appeal.

05 04 07 phoned the helpline to question this letter, told my appeal was in the bin, I had been overpaid and I had to pay it back. I point out that this is against their published proceedure in WTC/AP booklet. Helen didn't like that so put the phone down on me. Rang back and got told they will send COP1 how to complain.

Cop/1 arrives and I attempt to ring the number in it for the Director, it has been disconnected, phoned the helpline and they cannot offer any help or new number.

20 04 07 CAB, they try to ring the helpline and when the questions get too much the helpline hangs up. They write to HMRC

27 04 07 I see my MP and he writes to them to tell them it is their mistake

02 05 07 A letter from Colette Rhami Tax credit office, Having reviewed my additional information:
2003-2004 I made a single claim up to 04 04 04 when my joint household ended. I must pay back the overpayment.
2005-2006 Due to an increase in your joint household income I must pay the overpayment back, it was not reasonable for me to .........blah blah

I have been married 25 years and was paid nil £0 nothing in 2003-04 2005-06 but apparently that needs to be paid back and it wasn't reasonable to believe £0 was right.

10 05 07 helpline phoned again about the latest letter, they cant work out where they got the details as it is not what is on file, best thing to do is "ignore it"

11 05 07 Phoned Ajudicators office to see if they have a number for the IR directors, given 01772...., phoned it 119 times today without getting through. The Adjudicators are named in COP 1 as the third tier of a complaint but their wbsite front page states they do not deal with Tax credit.

31 05 07 next appointment with CAB


You really could not make this up, if you take on professionally trained incompetants you will loose.

Sorry for the length of the thread





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Robert
Admin



United Kingdom
829 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  18:34:57  Show Profile Send Robert a Private Message
Welcome..chrisp.. what you describe seems like the norm ,they will deny that's it's their fault till the cows come home..read some of the reports from the public accounts committee, that you will find on the forum. and the news stories.that are also posted... incompetence seems to come as standard in the HMRC..

My advice would be to read the posts on here.. whatever don't end up in court,as the HMRC just produce a certificate to the judge..case proved you owe the money..






The truth is out there.. GO get it..

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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  19:01:20  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
Hi Chrisp, now contact your mp here You must be logged in to see this link.
You should get a response within 7 days. Your mp may say nothing he/she can do because the revenue have responded with 'proof' (especially if a poor mp)or may say waiting for a response from the revenue

Pay no attention, reply giving details of your problem dealings with the revenue, do not give up. They will try to wear you down, keep on arguing your case, with your mp and the revenue. Do not ignore letters from the revenue, reply contesting their findings. Send all letters registered post. Do not end up in court you must at all stages dispute the revenues case. It is not a just system, the revenue have a flawed law on their side. So you must use their 'laws' to your own advantage.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  20:44:00  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Welcome Chrisp.

I advise that you not only appeal, but COMPLAIN too - in writing and sent Recorded Delivery.

You say that they advised you to "ignore it" and I think that you're smart enough to have realised that that is the very last thing that you should do. What you should do, is remember and never forget that they told you that. in fact you should have got them to put it in writing that you should ignore it!

Little comments like that from them are like double edged swords. They can lead you into a trap, or they can be used as ammunition against them - depending on how YOU handle it.

Keep talkin / writing to your MP too. From what we've been reading lately the MP's are fed-up to the back teeth with the Tax Credit Cowboys and if we keep giving them more cases to study the time will come when they call time on Primarolo & Co.

Keep in touch with your Citizens Advice Burea too - they will be keeping a log of your case which may be useful later on.


Hang in there and don't give in - they CAN be beaten!
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chrisp
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



98 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  21:37:07  Show Profile Send chrisp a Private Message
Thanks for the support, I intend to be a right thorn in their side, is it any wonder our taxes are so high. I have contacted X Ray and Watchdog to see if I can get their interest and publicity.

Don't really care if I end up on every black list there is, this is the straw that broke the proverbial. As soon as my son has finished his education I am off. I simply cannot live here any more and watch my country destroyed by these fools.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  22:37:10  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Well said!!

That's exactly the kind of spirit that will see you through this catalogue of incompetence, and you're right when you say that our country is being destroyed by fools.

May I suggest that you write exactly that to your MP? (If you haven't done so already!)

I read a newspaper article recently that had the headline "This country is being run by amateurs" so I cut it out and posted it to my MP.

They need to be told that we're wise to them these days!
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2007 :  23:24:02  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Thinking again about our new Friend chrisp's posting, <<I have contacted X Ray and Watchdog to see if I can get their interest and publicity.>> maybe this could be a good idea for the campaign to get onto?
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2007 :  08:30:49  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Thanks, Chrisp, for an excellent post - and welcome aboard. Your post and others' responses raise a lot of issues, and I can't help but think you have an excellent case for a write-off once the tax credit cowboys have given up on their own judge and jury rulings on your case, and the more independent adjudicator and ombudsman take a look. They will surely uncover many of these inconsistencies and will hopefully find in your favour.

I'm assuming you found this forum through visiting the main Tax Credit Casualties' website first, rather than coming directly here? But if not, you'll need to visit the following for Paula's superb guidance on how to proceed disputing recovery of your overpayment with HMRC:

You must be logged in to see this link.

The main things to remember - and this will be true for all tax credit overpayment victims - have been ably stated already by Sammy, Robert and Alan. Firstly, do not, whatever you do, let them take you to court. Too many people are lulled into a false sense of security when 'court' is mentioned, because they conjure up a vision of a proper hearing, based on the principle 'innocent until proven guilty', and firmly believe that no judge is going to fail to see the mistakes, abuses and inconsistencies of HMRC in any other light than that they are completely culpable and that the case should be thrown out, possibly even with apologies and some compensation to their innocent victims. Not so. The judge can be completely sympathetic but the current rules forbid the hearing of proper evidence, so even if the claimant (defendant?) brings in a wheelbarrow of papers and evidence, they will wheel that right back home untouched, their status as a debtor set in tablets of stone. I believe - I have not gone to court, so I cannot confirm - that the only matter they might discuss is repayment terms, ie. how much per week or month that the claimant is going to pay back, based on the court's determination of what they can afford, rather than the claimant's. But this is only what I have been told by a workplace counselling service. Suffice it to say that Sammy has been to court himself and was told by the judge in no uncertain terms that however much he might like to hear Sammy's viewpoint, he could not. Once HMRC produce a slip of paper, the 'debt' is irrefutable, and that's apparently it. So don't go there!

The good news on that is that we have yet to hear from anyone who has tried to stop their court case and failed - the simple fact being that, despite Primarolo telling the House that court action is used only as a last resort, she is lying. HMRC use court action when they've had a cursory look at things, decided the 'debt' should be repaid, but aren't getting any joy from the claimant. HMRC and Primarolo don't seem overbothered by the fact that they are rushing these court cases through, in the knowledge that the claimant still has several lines of appeal they could follow (the adjudicator and ombudsman, and maybe when we find a few sympathetic lawyers - as we're currently trying to do now - some 'no win no fee' court actions). We are seeing too many claimants who are being (deliberately?) misled into thinking that the way to get someone independent looking at their case is going to be court rather than the adjudicator and ombudsman - AND HMRC ARE FAILING IN THEIR DUTY TO PUT THIS COMMON MISAPPREHENSION RIGHT! All it would take is a letter from HMRC pointing out, in plain English, the right to have the adjudicator or ombudsman look at your case, and warning that court action was not a tribunal or independent hearing but to make a judgement that the claimant is legally in debt to the Revenue. The reason HMRC don't want us going to the adjudicator and ombudsman in droves (like we currently are!!) is that both of these overturn 62-80% of all the cases HMRC have failed, and also feed back on HMRC's failings - the courts don't. So avoid court at all costs - the website spells out how (via your MP.)

Secondly, as Alan says, disputing your case isn't enough - you need to COMPLAIN, and elsewhere he's stated that you need to plaster 'COMPLAINT' all over it in letters 3ft high, because HMRC are typical playground bullies and their brawn and might is only exceeded by their arogance and stupidity. Disputing is a defensive action, whilst complaining puts us on the offensive and should get HMRC examining some of their actions and omissions. I say 'should', because they are meant to repond within 15 days, according to Alan, but if I get a response in 15 weeks, I'm lucky. (Alan, what do we do if they fail to respond within their timeframes? I'm not up to speed on that one yet?). As Alan suggests, use your MP, Citizens Advice and (if you qualify by salary) the Low Incomes Tax Reform Group. The latter operate a salary thresshold, although they bent it for me because there were other issues as well (it was the Civil Partnership Act's coming into force and my notifying them of my partner which uncovered a huge overpayment, and discrimination has been a factor - still is). All these agencies are there to help, and regularly feed back to government and HMRC statistics and horror stories - another reason why we call Primarolo the Ostrich, because the Paymaster and her government just ignore them and hope we will all go away.

Thirdly, you need to remember that you did nothing wrong and that the calls you made are your evidence. The website shows how to send off a 'SARN' request for a copy of all your award notices, letters, and HMRC documentation including the print outs from their computer screens (I forget what they call these for the moment). Also, for a CD of your calls, or if you're really lucky, transcripts (they know I'm a tricky customer and have only so far sent me CDs, although I've repeatedly asked for transcripts as they are easier to present to lawyers).

Chrisp, you write, '02 1106 I phoned to check as it was the first money we had ever had from them. I was told it was right and to have a good Christmas. I had also noticed an error in our bank details so pointed this out'. The fourth important point to remember is that, under HMRC's rules, if they assure you that your award is right, and you can evidence it, then it is perfectly reasonable for you to have believed your award was right. Get a CD or transcript of your calls, and you have got them by the short and curlies, for sure.

Fifthly - if you run into any problems, such as an unsympathetic MP who won't make the necessary calls (s)he needs to make to stop your court case (eg. Sally Keeble, who ironically sat on the Treasury Committee which produced the scathing 6th report on tax credits stating that a pause between finding an overpayment 'debt' and recovery was a legal requirement, but was probably fast asleep at the time), or HMRC have 'lost' your call records (conveniently), don't despair - just get in touch with us here and we'll point you the way. Paula's seen most problems by now.

You make a good point about poublicity. Everyone can do this, although experience shows that it can be quite difficult to do, especially as we're working people, and when the press want to talk to us, they need to do so at their convenience and not ours. My advice is, go for it. Please mention 'Tax Credit Casualties' and drop in that we have a website. We're going to publicly launch, and it's looking as though it'll be on or around 12th June - but everything in this campaign so far has been unpredictable, opportunistic and by luck as much as planning. My prediction is that once we get a decent public launch and a campaign fund, we'll get public opinion on our side, because so many people have been overpaid and done wrong to, and two million people a year just can't all be criminals, cheats, incompetents and liars.

I'll post this now before I lose it (another reason, I suspect, why new members aren't always posting).

Keep fighting, don't give up. That we will win this is a certainty - what is in question is when. If we stick together and don't give up, it will be sooner rather than later, and in any event, when New Labour lose power.






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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2007 :  08:56:11  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
I forgot to say that campaigning not only helps all of us, but can actually help you. I'll explain why: HMRC are bullies who kick the hell out of the meek, mild and innocent, but they loathe dealing with lawyers (I wonder why?) or the media. There's evidence knocking about everywhere on the web that those claimants with strong (sadly, usually NOT New Labour, so it IS a postcode lottery, for all they say) MPs who write LOTS of letters get their overpayments written off rather sooner and rather more willingly. Similarly, HMRC's guidance on Recovery Procedures makes reference to exercising great care when taking court action against claimants in the media eye. They don't want to be seen to be breaching our Human Rights, which we know they are (Right to a Fair Trial for starters). There's also HMRC guidance (which I can find but don't have at my fingertips as I write) stating that any disputes which are in the hands of lawyers need to go immediately to the top level and be looked at right away. So we as individuals and as a group have nothing to lose by getting anyone and everyone involved: the press, Low Incomes Tax Reform Group, Citizens Advice, our MPs, and anyone else with any clout. If you have car or house insurance which gives legal cover, it's always worth calling to see if they will take legal action on your behalf, without fee. HMRC and the government are operating their bully-boy tactics on the following assumptions:

1) Being in debt grinds people down and tends to lead to depression, apathy and a sense of helplessness, so those who are kicked down stay down.

2) People don't tend to argue with those in authority unless really sure of their ground and rights, and quite assertive. If told by a powerful government agency that they are to blame, usually they'll swallow this. If HMRC and the state don't advertise our rights, we'll never know.

3) Time and time again people say, when they find our sites, that it's great to know they aren't alone. If I had £1 for everyone who's said this, I'd have enough to pay the damn thing off (not that I'd ever want to or ever would, I feel that strongly). Two million people who all think they're alone and can't do much about the status quo are powerless. Two million who are aware we're in it together and ready to fight for their rights are a powerful force. Keeping us isolated is the key. Hence the ostrich tactics - if the government play down the problem, hopefully no-one will notice...

3) The government and HMRC rely on tax credit claimants not being able to access legal representation without selling everything they've ever owned to fund it, because generally we earn too much to get legal aid, and too little to have anything spare to invest in court action. If we can't access court, we can't access justice, and we're all the more likely to be lulled into thinking THEIR court cases offer us free justice. They don't.

4) HMRC won't separate out fraud from error, and create the mistaken belief that error is claimant error, not HMRC error. The latter they'd never properly identify anyway, since according to their 'reasonableness' test, we're all in the wrong. Hence it's all our error. If the public knew the truth, there would be a huge national outcry. All the time unaffected citizens think we messed up or defrauded the system, we don't have their sympathy. Once the truth is known, we will.

Awareness is the key. Anyone who wants to take this to the media - go for it.
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chrisp
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



98 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2007 :  15:51:24  Show Profile Send chrisp a Private Message
The form I filled in from th WTC\AP booklet sets out 4 stages, they look at it and make their decision, if we don't agree it goes to an Appeal tribunal. £ people not connected with HMRC hear the cse, if we don't agree it goes to the Ombudsman, if we don't agree we go to court.

From their rules I have 30 days from the notice to appeal, I sent it well within and registered it so I know they got it. I am then supposed to receve a letter from a Compliance officer within 30 days and al furter communication is through them, supposed to give me phone number to contact him on.

I am not making up these rules, simply summarising what their own publication states. The registered mail was received on 09 March 07 and all the help line can tell me is that the whole lot has been binned. They want me to resend it. Sorry but that isn't going to happen and by their own rules Court is stage 4 so they had simply better get it out of the bin.

I have a Plaid MP who is great, apparently he told the Paymaster that it was unworkable at it's inception and he was told to go back to Wales and keep his nose out of what doesn't concern him. He has never forgotten and is progressing my case with enthusiasm.

Legal aid is not going to be an option for me unfortunately as my wife is head of Laparoscopic Surgery, however emigration is, she has offers in 3 countries at the moment. Our plans to leave are on hold until I have a resolution to this farce and a written apology from HMRC and my son finishes his education.

I have sent the request for information registered and we will see what happens with that. I did contact the Helpline on Friday just to get it on tape once again that I had rung them on 02 11 07 to queery the award and cange my bank details just in cast the record of that call was lost. Bit of Insurance if you like.

I now have a problem, following their latest overpayment letter for 2003-4 and 2005-6 should I dispute the fact that as I recieved nothing for those two periods was it not reasonable for me to think that nothing was wrong, should I have been awarded something. The other thing is how do I send the nothing to clear the overpayment of nothing and will they send me a receipt for nothing. Will I get bank charges for a cheque made out to HMRC for nothing or should I just send them an evelope with nothing in it, of course I would include a covering letter stating that the enclosed nothing is to pay the overpayment of nothing and could I please have a reciept for nothing in case they should question my payment of nothing at a later date.

This is better value than Sky telly any time.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2007 :  16:50:02  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
That's interesting - I've never heard of there being am 'appeal tribunal' before - that's a new one on me, but then my overpayment threats date from August 2004 and December 2005, so maybe they've changed it? 'People not connected with HMRC' sounds good...

Can't believe the bill for nothing, though. My mate PJ (aka Paula) sent me a 'bill' marked zero, but it was a joke for my birthday (I wish!). Perhaps it's catching on?
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chrisp
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



98 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2007 :  19:19:11  Show Profile Send chrisp a Private Message
They sent me this when I first started this journey into the depths of officially authorised insanity.

You must be logged in to see this link.

I completed it and returned it registered post. I have been told it is in the bin.

In it the Appeals tribunal and compliance officer to deal with your case is mentioned.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 13/05/2007 :  18:37:26  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Do you have it on record that "it is in the bin"?

I hope that you have as I think it will be very useful ammunition to use against them.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 13/05/2007 :  18:41:06  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Another thought - and I apologise if I'm telling you about the road that you already know; have you told your MP that you've been told "it's in the bin"?

It would be interesting to have him ask Primarostrich or her successor about their novel filing system!
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 13/05/2007 :  18:48:48  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
CHRISP

Your post <<I now have a problem, following their latest overpayment letter for 2003-4 and 2005-6 should I dispute the fact that as I recieved nothing for those two periods was it not reasonable for me to think that nothing was wrong, should I have been awarded something. The other thing is how do I send the nothing to clear the overpayment of nothing and will they send me a receipt for nothing. Will I get bank charges for a cheque made out to HMRC for nothing or should I just send them an evelope with nothing in it, of course I would include a covering letter stating that the enclosed nothing is to pay the overpayment of nothing and could I please have a reciept for nothing in case they should question my payment of nothing at a later date.>>

I think that you should send them a cheque for £0-00. When you're dealing with a computer I think it best to humour it - as long as it doesn't cost you anything - and it will show them up as the incompetent fools that they are and at the same time show that you are being "reasonable" (one of their key words I think).

It will stand you in good stead in future arguments with them.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 14/05/2007 :  14:04:15  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
I could be wrong, but I think HMRC misinformed you, Chrisp, about the appeals tribunal. They are not - as far as I know, unless things have completely changed - offering a tribunal to look at the justice or injustice of tax credit overpayment recovery. As far as I know (and if it's changed, no-one at HMRC has told me, nor my MP, or anyone else I've been chivvying for a change in the rules and access to an independent appeal at an early stage)all the tribunal can do is rule whether or not you have an entitlement if you've been previously declined, or rule whether or not you should be fined a penalty charge. I don't think - unless something new has been introduced to stop HMRC falling foul of the Human Rights Act, on the right to a fair trial - that the tribunal will determine whether or not you should repay any overpayment.

So if the form you submitted is to have an appeal tribunal look at your overpayment issue, that might be why someone at HMRC decided to bin it. Nice of them to do so without consultation or contacting you to give constructive advice! Consistency is not HMRC's strong point.

I like Alan's suggestion of sending them a check for nothing. Perhaps you could get hold of one of those Charity-style oversize cheques and deliver it to them in person, with your local newspaper capturing the event on camera?

Just an idea, for what it's worth.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 14/05/2007 :  21:31:00  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
<<I like Alan's suggestion of sending them a check for nothing.>>

I have to confess it wasn't my idea. I read it some years ago in a book called "How To Complain". It was written bt Christopher Ward who was a journalist on the Daily Mirror and it was full of useful info on complaining in unorthodox but very effective ways.

I remember his reasoning for sending a cheque for £0-00 in response to a computer asking for £0-00 was that the computer was so stupid that it couldn't see how ridiculous the situation was so as long as you gave it exactly what it asked for it would be happy and leave you alone - and he's right.

It was an excellent book and I used it a lot in one of my businesses. Then I lent it to someone ....
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 14/05/2007 :  21:34:29  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Another thought; how about writing the cheque for £0-00 on a big pair of knickers and presenting it to the revenue with the press looking on?

That way they'll be getting the payment they asked for and we'll be letting them know what we think of them all at the same time!
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 15/05/2007 :  09:38:30  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Yes, you're right - the system is pants!
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chrisp
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



98 Posts

Posted - 15/05/2007 :  10:54:53  Show Profile Send chrisp a Private Message
Update

The letter advising me of the recovery of my overpayment for 2003-4 and 2005-6 is adressed to me they agree but it shouldn't be. It contains all the details of another person. There are enough personal details details in it for me to identify this other person without too much trouble. I have pointed out a potential Data Protection Act offence to them and asked if the consider they hae a duty of care to provide accurate information and maintain confidentiality in respect of sensitive personal data. They have agree and have promised me a call from the TCO as a matter of ungency and a letter to explain how this error arose including an apology.

At the end of the call I told them I had contacted the BBC with a view to getting publicity for my case and it went deathly silent

Watch this space
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 15/05/2007 :  11:15:15  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Nice one chrisp.

How about trying to contact the other person whose details you have and maybe they will complain too? (he/she may even join our forum!)

Many hands make light work! (as they say in the power station)
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