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n/a
deleted


54 Posts

Posted - 26/10/2007 :  23:45:28  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
OK where do I start I received a letter from HMRC demanded a repayment of £2185 by 19th November. This has been an ongoing issue since Feb 06. I have gone down all the routes, or so I believe, my MP wasn't much help, he did send some letters but to no avail. I just tired of all the work and gave up basically and now I have this letter. Below is a general synopsis of my situation with TCO.

I originally attempted to claim WTC with my then wife in Jan 2003 and was informed I was not entitled to anything.
In May 2004 my marriage broke down and I left home.
In October 2005 I received a letter from TCO informing me of an overpayment of £2185. First I knew of anything BTW the letter arrived at my "new" address. After many phone calls and letters I received the following information, that I became unemployed and become eligible to WTC. I hadn't and it was discovered that it was through an error at the TCO, they admitted fault that any money was paid. Heres the twist in the tale. The money was paid into a former joint account, no payments were made until the end of September 2004, my name was removed from the account in early September 2004 and I have proof. My ex wife received the money and has admitted so to TCO. Now according to TCO I lost my appeal because I failed to notify them of a change in circumstances (my separation)though I wasn't in receipt of WTC at that time and didn't understand the principle of "ongoing claim". They say that all mail was sent to the address they had on file (my old address) but yet somehow they manage to find my new address to send a overpayment letter in October 2005, I know that my new address didn't come from myself or my ex wife, so where did it come from.
So to sum up, I now have to pay HMRC at least 50% of the £2185 before 19th November even though the original overpayment was caused through their own admitted error, I have proved that I never received the money or had access to it, I reported the error as soon as I knew about it, unfortunately 12 months too late. My ex wife on the other hand has admitted receiving the money, was in a position to report the error immediately but failed to do so and is refusing to pay anything.
Any help would be appreciated as I am now running out of time.

Just an extra note, I have a letter in my possession a letter from TCO that clearly states in the first line that "date your tax credit claim ended 30/08/04 which is a date prior to any credits being paid. I routinely mention this in my phone calls but is continually dismissed as not being relevant...is it? and could it be my way out.

Regards,
Nigel

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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  00:25:25  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Hello Nigel and welcome!

I'm going to give you the same advice that I give to everyone who arrives here and that is don't give in - keep on challenging, disputing and complaining and when you've done that do it all over again!

So, get this little mantra running in your head; Challenge, Dispute, Complain.

Then;

1) Use this link; You must be logged in to see this link.
to visit our main site and have a good browse around.
2) Go to the First things First page – here’s the direct link; You must be logged in to see this link. and follow the instructions.

With regard to Step 8) Publicity; get as much publicity as you can. Media Interest is to HMRC Tax Credit what sunlight is to Dracula! You should at least contact the Mirror newspaper who have already done an article on us, and – hopefully – have another in the pipeline.

Here are the contact details; James Coney, Deputy Business Editor, Daily Mirror, can be contacted on; 0207 293 3030, or by email at; james.coney@mirror.co.uk

I think it is important that you get your local Citizens Advice Bureau involved as they will have knowledge of other cases just like yours and will hopefully have a dossier on these cases which at some point will land from a great height into someone’s lap. Hopefully, that someone will be Gordon Brown - the chief architect of this whole fiasco. The more cases that there are in the said dossier the heavier it will be!

The CAB’s file on your case will also act as testimony to your attempts to communicate with the Tax Credit Office, so for that alone I think it’s worth involving them.

It is also important to get your MP involved because he / she works for you and is your direct line into Parliament.

We believe that currently some 20% of MPs’ time is taken up be Tax Credit problems. Hopefully, there will come a point when they become heartily sick of it and make a united attack on Brown & HMRC. We live in hope!

Unfortunately, some “New Labour” MPs have been a bit “less than helpful” with regard to Tax Credit problems, but it would be useful for you to find out now if yours is one of these in order to help you make your decision on who to vote for at the next election.

(You may like to remind your MP of his / her obligation to you and that you are old enough to vote!)

Don’t be afraid to COMPLAIN and when your letters(s) of COMPLAINT don’t bring a response – as so often is the case – COMPLAIN about that too!

Write COMPLAINT on the top of every sheet of paper used in your COMPLAINT and at the top of the envelope too in nice BIG red letters, and send by Recorded Delivery. I won my case this way.

Please understand that we cannot fight your case for you – we can only offer advice, but much of the advice is tried and tested, and some of us have actually won our cases. Others are beginning to see a light at the end of the dark tunnel.

Right. That’s enough for you to be getting on with for just now. Get stuck in and please come back to us for more advice and moral support.

You have friends here and we’ll help you all we can.

I notice that you have approached your MP and found that he wasn't much help. I suggest that you write again to the useless b ugger telling him that you're not satisfied with his performance and reminding him that he works for you.

While you are in the process of dispute, HMRC - by their own rules - cannot take action against you so the sooner you get the ball rolling the better.





"Broons aall roond f'th' lads an' divvent hoy yer liggies doon th' netty!!"

Edited by - Alan the Geordie on 27/10/2007 00:28:33
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  01:01:31  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Thanks for your pointers.

CAB has been involved but because, 9 months ago I was under the impression that my ex was making an arrangement to pay I sat back and when nothing came from TCO I assumed (wrongly) it was sorted. I intend to email him this weekend to bring him back up to speed. As for my MP, he was good to start off with but then never answered my last letter which then coincided with the above happened so he dropped from the loop. I am weary but intend to fight.

Regards,
Nigel
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Robert
Admin



United Kingdom
829 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  01:27:03  Show Profile Send Robert a Private Message
Hi nigel..

As Alan says complain, and complain again..has your case been to the Adjudicator or the parliamentry Ombudsman yet..Take Alans advice from above,and give them hell..

The truth is out there.. GO get it......Non Illigitamus Carborundum

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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  01:39:11  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by nigel

Thanks for your pointers.

CAB has been involved but because, 9 months ago I was under the impression that my ex was making an arrangement to pay I sat back and when nothing came from TCO I assumed (wrongly) it was sorted. I intend to email him this weekend to bring him back up to speed. As for my MP, he was good to start off with but then never answered my last letter which then coincided with the above happened so he dropped from the loop. I am weary but intend to fight.

Regards,
Nigel



I understand that weary feeling all to well Nigel and am pleased to note that you intend to fight.

Do not let your MP off the hook!!

He works for you don't let him forget that and make him work for you. Remind him that you are of voting age and if he expects you to vote for him he may be disappointed!

One further thought that entered my head (and it was very lonely while it was in there) is that in the worst case you and your ex may be jointly and severally liable for the repayment, and it may be that you have to pay your half of it then sue her to get it back. The problem with that is - as I once discovered to my cost - there's no point in suing someone who has no money!

The main focus of your fight is - and should always be - to clear yourself completely from this alleged overpayment.

Stay in touch as I'm sure other Lads & Lasses will be along to offer their help too.

"Broons aall roond f'th' lads an' divvent hoy yer liggies doon th' netty!!"
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auntieh
Rank; Really should become a politician



United Kingdom
625 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  20:07:27  Show Profile Send auntieh a Private Message
Hi Nigel

HMRC's argument in your case seems extremely flimsy to me and I don't see how any sane person could possibly argue that you should repay money paid to your ex wife without your knowledge by HMRC in error. Sadly, sanity is something that HMRC doesn't do, so you will need to follow the advice given by others and continue to dispute this.

It would be interesting to see what Splashin makes of your case when she has a look. There may be a very simple way of getting HMRC off your back in your particular circumstances and she is the person who can probably help you on this one.

Auntie
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  20:10:17  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
Hi Nigel
Welcome to the forum. What a terrible mess your situation is. I am firstly going to say, if you are going to dispute this overpayment, then you MUST be prepared to see it thru until the end. When that will be is like 'how long is a piece if string', but if I were you there is no way on earth I would pay back something which I never consented too, knew about or even recvd.

From your first post, I see that your ex wife has been able to get tax credits, is she still in receipt of them now? Do you have any children? Have you requested for a SARN to be sent out to you?
There are a number of things which just don't seem right here, if you can confirm these things again I would appreciate it.
Your first application sent in 2003, you got notice from them to say you were not entitled. Was this in an award notice form or a written letter? What was the reason given for not being entitled?
You then go on to say, after becoming unemployed you then became eligible to start getting WTC? WTC can only be paid to people who work 16 hrs (with children in household)or 30 hours and total income is no more than 14k per year. Did your ex wife work?
The joint account that money was paid into, does your ex wife still use this account? Was the money paid in one or 2 lump sums or was it regular 2or4 weekly payments?
When you became unemployed did you then claim any benefits? This would probably be how they have your new address details, either that or you have changed your address with your tax office for PAYE purpose. HMRC's computer is chief, it scans all the other computer systems for any details it needs from your national insurance number.
Nigel, these things you must try to find out, because I know of many claims that were unsuccessful when claimant first applied and they were sent out the not entitled letter that have been Fraudulently accessed at a later time and details changed (inc bank accounts) to force through a payment. Then once money has be sent to the account all details are then swapped back to the original details held. Thus making it look like the original claimant has recvd all monies paid. Don't let this lie. Don't let them win. Don't pay back something you have never had.
Let me know these things as I have much more to tell you.



Splashin
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  21:41:44  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Hi Splashin,
I'll try to give you the fullest details. It is complicated please bare with me. I will try to address your questions in order.
quote:
I see that your ex wife has been able to get tax credits, is she still in receipt of them now? Do you have any children? Have you requested for a SARN to be sent out to you?

Firstly the only tax credits my wife received were those that were suddenly paid to her, supposedly under our original joint claim back in Jan 2003, the first payment of which did not occur until 21st Sept 2004. We have no children and I have requested a SARN which I received but I feel a lot of info is missing from it.
quote:
Your first application sent in 2003, you got notice from them to say you were not entitled. Was this in an award notice form or a written letter? What was the reason given for not being entitled?


We were told that between us we earned too much for WTC and our award was £0.00. My original award notice has been lost, I requested a copy which never arrived. I have now requested another copy, along with some other missing details. No new claim was ever made.
quote:
You then go on to say, after becoming unemployed you then became eligible to start getting WTC?


This is where it gets complicated. I never did become unemployed, TCO accepts the error was theirs, they state the overpayment was caused by an unemployment marker (JSA(IB)) placed incorrectly on the claim. They quote in a letter to me "we were informed that you had ceased employment on 3rd August 2004 and because your estimated income had reduced as a result of this, your award was recalculated and your entitlement increased to £2185 for WTC" I have yet to ascertain were this info came from, I have not been unemployed at anytime.

quote:
Did your ex wife work?

My ex wife was self employed at the time of the original claim and continued to work until the end of Aug 2004. She then went to claim benefits from mid Sept 2004.
quote:
The joint account that money was paid into, does your ex wife still use this account? Was the money paid in one or 2 lump sums or was it regular 2or4 weekly payments?

The joint account was signed over to my wifes sole name in early September, I have letter from bank for evidence, she still uses the a/c and the money was paid in regular 4 weekly payments.
quote:
This would probably be how they have your new address details, either that or you have changed your address with your tax office for PAYE purpose. HMRC's computer is chief, it scans all the other computer systems for any details it needs from your national insurance number.

They say they did not have any change of address or circumstances details from me. I have found a page in my SARN info which shows my address as my new address, the date of this sheet is 15th Sept 2004, the source of the info is shown as WAA (working age agency) coincidentally the date shown is the same date as my ex wife went to claim benefits for unemployment. This also prior to any money being paid out.

I lost my last appeal because TCO say I never informed them of change of circumstances (seperation) and address, but yet they suddenly find my new address to chase me for money. I should have known that the payments were wrong...I wasn't in a position to know this, I have no copies of the supposed letters that were sent to tell me I had become eligible for WTC, I collected all my mail regularly when I seperated and did not receive anything. I have applied for copies if they exist. My ex wife admitted receiving the money into her account. My problem lies with trying to remove my name from the debt, TCO seems to work on the theory that two names against a debt means double the chance to get the money.
It seems to me that I am been chased for money that was originally paid due to a TCO error. Also TCO failed to update their records regarding my new address, so any mail sent, if any went unread so I was in no position to notify them of their error, the first I knew I informed them immediately unfortunately it was 14 months too late.
If you need anymore info please ask. Sorry to be long winded.

Regards,
Nigel
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  21:52:04  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
Hi Nigel and Welcome
This is not a stupid reply
Sue them
You must be logged in to see this link.
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  21:54:54  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Just an extra point, all money that was paid, was paid out after my ex wife went to claim benefits, payments commenced within 10 days of her visit to the DSS. At no point did I have access to this money, or was even aware of it. No money was paid prior to my departure from the household and no further claim was made from our first unsuccessful attempt in Jan 2003. I hope this helps.

Regards,
Nigel
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  23:17:55  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
Hi Nigel
Thanks for the prompt reply.
Okay I can see a little more into the problem now. With regards to this situation, I can see there are many malpractice's that HMRC have committed, but even by bringing these things to light, I don't know if you will ever win this argument with HMRC without bringing in a Lawyer (which will be expensive), BUT, and thats a big but, most of the time if you know what your talking about then they usually s**t themselves and remit. You see when a overpaid claimant tells them things they probably don't even know themselves (well the majority of them) they usually don't try to explain any further, in case they get it even more wrong. Okay so here's what I think you should do.
I think a you should request another dispute form from HMRC, they may say you have already done this, but tell them you have new evidence which you wish to supply to them. If you can't get one from the helpline, go into your local Inland Revenue Advice Centre (usually one in each town)and get one there.
On this form you start by stating, whenever a person claims tax credits or any other benefit from the state, they supply there current circumstances, this is confirmed by your signature and date under the 'this information is true' bit. Which at the time when you did claim these details were the current circumstances. From this you recvd a notice stating due to income level no credits would be paid. This is where your 'claim' with HMRC ended. It is through not fault of your own that HMRC kept hold of your details on their computer system. I mean if your circumstances did change you would put in a fresh claim, giving them your current circumstances from that day, you wouldn't use the old application form you filled in years ago. Am I right in saying that your ex wife never contacted HMRC when she became unemployed to tell them she now was no longer self employed. If this is correct, then this is what would of happened with your claim. When a claim is recvd and processed the system will do a few things, firstly it will check that there is eligibility, eg. age, working hours, children, place usually live and work, then when its done that it then looks at your level of income or if your in receipt of benefits. If you are claiming benefits then a mark is made on the claim, thus making the system not take into account any present income details held, it overrides both incomes if present, regardless of their level. If no benefits are shown then it would look at your income details and calculate an award. Anyway, because your ex wife claimed benefits, her details would have been then logged into the DWP system with the start date these benefits would have been claimed. The DWP computer then stores this information and updates the Tax Credit system weekly, that information would usually update automatically to any persons claim and create a verification failure, which then would make the claim get added to a work-list, which can only be worked/cleared by MANUAL clearance. Was your ex, ever contacted by HMRC to clarify these failures showing on the work-list? (which is be the correct procedure)
If this never occurred then HMRC surmises your current circumstances and applied them to the claim held. I would say this could be seen as a fraudulent act. You wouldn't see DWP putting extra details onto an old application form from someone claiming benefits.
With regards to the SARN, (which I imagine to be no more than 50 pages in total) this is where you would be able to clarify the changes being applied to your claim held. Screen Print Outs and Household Notes hold the evidence you need to confirm that this overpayment has and was created by no fault of your own or your ex partner (if she never contacted HMRC with changes). Do you have any screen prints included in the SARN?
You forgot to mention if your ex still gets tax credits now?
I understand that you say you have tried every possible route to dispute this overpayment, can you please tell me what action you have taken (apart from getting your MP involved). I know time is not on our side here, so I would try my best to obtain a new dispute form ASAP, to get a stop placed on recovery. This will buy you a bit more time giving you time to gather fresh evidence.



Splashin

P.S. Alan - This bit is for you.....

Malpractice
1. Improper or negligent treatment of a patient, as by a physician, resulting in injury, damage, or loss.
2. Improper or unethical conduct by the holder of a professional or official position.
3. The act or an instance of improper practise

Splashin
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 27/10/2007 :  23:23:47  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
Nigel, all monies (i imagine this was a joint claim)
In hmrc law you are both joint and severally liable, in other words the claiment will seek payment from both parties,(ie you share liability) if they can't (ie one is unemployed etc..they will go after the other. They will go after the one whom in their opinion can pay back.

Makes no difference if you ever had the money or not, in effect you are a guarantee on the 'loan'
In fairness to hmrc similar laws apply to all finance industries.
However all finance industries have to abide with strict rules of conduct, hmrc do not
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 28/10/2007 :  00:11:51  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Hi Splashin

<<P.S. Alan - This bit is for you.....

Malpractice
1. Improper or negligent treatment of a patient, as by a physician, resulting in injury, damage, or loss.
2. Improper or unethical conduct by the holder of a professional or official position.
3. The act or an instance of improper practise>>

We in the Trade would simple call it a balls-up.


"Broons aall roond f'th' lads an' divvent hoy yer liggies doon th' netty!!"
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 28/10/2007 :  00:23:19  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Nigel

You will find a new Dispute Form here; You must be logged in to see this link.

At the top left corner under the monkeys click on TCC DISPUTE PACK.

Download it and open it in MS Word.

Scroll down a long way and you will find it about 6 pages from the bottom.

"Broons aall roond f'th' lads an' divvent hoy yer liggies doon th' netty!!"
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 28/10/2007 :  10:28:51  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
OK thanks everyone, heres more info you requested.
First of all I contacted TCO "helpline" yesterday, told them I have fresh evidence, they are sending out new dispute form, though I already downloaded one and suspending collection until further notice.
To the best of my knowledge my ex wife never contacted HMRC when she ceased working
quote:
Was your ex, ever contacted by HMRC to clarify these failures showing on the work-list? (which is be the correct procedure)

Not as far as I am aware.
quote:
Do you have any screen prints included in the SARN?

I do have screen print outs, I can find no info from them regarding the unexplained unemployment marker that was put against my name on 3rd August 2004, I never was unemployed, neither can I find anything relating to my ex wifes unemployment commencing 1st September 2004 or subsequent benefits claim on 15th September 2004.
UPDATE: I just found an entry on 15/9/04 it reads "unproc'd COC- Emp end date and JSA start date entered. WI cleared CTPU/5/19/FR" the abbreviations COC and WI are not listed on abbreviations list so unsure. I have no copy of any letter that it seems should have been sent out.
quote:
You forgot to mention if your ex still gets tax credits now?

No she doesn't, payments stopped the moment I reported the error. She never reclaimed.
quote:
I understand that you say you have tried every possible route to dispute this overpayment, can you please tell me what action you have taken (apart from getting your MP involved)

I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure where I got to. Looking through my file, I did the original dispute form, then the official complaint form COP1. I haven't been to adjudicators yet. My MP wrote to the minister and they said they were unable to overturn the decision. Hope this helps some.

Regards,
Nigel
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Resurgam
Admin



United Kingdom
144 Posts

Posted - 28/10/2007 :  15:24:51  Show Profile Send Resurgam a Private Message
Hi Nigel.

What a balls-up!

Can I recommend that you phone the Overpayment Help Team on 0845 302 1429 and inform them that your "claim" is still under dispute. They should put a stop on any recovery proceedings, although this doesn't always seem to happen.

I was informed, on 26 October, that the helpline operatives cannot stop proceedings, and that you have to ring the Overpayment Help Team.

Hope this helps. Don't give up - take it as far as you can. It's dispicable!
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 28/10/2007 :  21:51:44  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
OK I worked out CoC is change of circumstances, in this case it would be my ex wifes unemployment and start of claiming benefits. It seems to me that a change of circumstances was notified and not acted upon.

Regards,
Nigel
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 29/10/2007 :  21:37:54  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by nigel

OK I worked out CoC is change of circumstances, in this case it would be my ex wifes unemployment and start of claiming benefits. It seems to me that a change of circumstances was notified and not acted upon.

Regards,
Nigel



That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest!

"Broons aall roond f'th' lads an' divvent hoy yer liggies doon th' netty!!"
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 29/10/2007 :  22:12:32  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
I can find no evidence of a renewal for 2004/2005, I never did complete my renewal form as I knew I was not entitled to WTC. Therefore my joint claim should have ended at that point. Whoever added the erroneous unemployment marker on 03/08/04 added it to a inactive claim. Is this point worth pursuing or am I barking up the wrong tree?


Regards,
Nigel

Edited by - n/a on 29/10/2007 23:19:38
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 29/10/2007 :  22:19:35  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
Hi Nigel

You would be very unlikely to be able to see any marker on the screen prints. The really only true way to work out if benefits had been indicated for that year would be by the Annual Declaration's. Upon these if your single claimant it will show you as, both, working and in receipt of some benefits. If your in a joint claim it will show you or your partner, either, 1 working, the other benefits or Both working, with one claiming benefits, both claiming benefits, none working.
With regards to your Household Notes, should read as follows,
Unprocessed Change of Circumstance - Employment End Date and Job Seekers Allowance Started Date Entered. Work list Cleared CTPU/5/19/FR (this last bit, is the processor's initials, team name, work unit, floor working on, and team number.)

Nigel - This is exactly what I was saying in my last LONG post, (sorry guy's) about your situation behind the line's. These details were plucked from one computer, to another, then logged onto a work list, which is manually cleared. Let me show you some link's which explain a little further.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

And this last one is where I got them all from

You must be logged in to see this link.

Nigel - You need to take this further, with full spirit though, it will be long (perhaps) but could also be (short lived), please take this to the end, it s a case worthy of a explanation, like the Many thousands of others have read since 2003. Do Not Let Sleeping Dog's Lie.



Splashin
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n/a
deleted



54 Posts

Posted - 29/10/2007 :  23:27:52  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
It seems to me that whoever worked the CoC on the work list, failed to contact my ex wife (as per procedure) to confirm the details. As per their manual it states "If the claimant is now eligible to tax credits* Invite them to make a fresh claim." no invite was received, nobody contacted her at any point. Regarding my separation, I was under no obligation to report my CoC due to the fact that my joint claim should have ended at the end of 03/04 tax year. I didn't renew my claim for 04/05 and all monies were paid out in the 04/05 tax year.
I will see this through as I am now angry at way HMRC treats people, and expects us to stand back and take it, well no more

Regards,
Nigel
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