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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector


38 Posts

Posted - 16/08/2007 :  10:30:38  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
I have just received a tax credit overpayment payslip, they are asking for 2706 back. last year i moved in with my partner and so changed from a single to a joint. i rung them and told them the changes and was told it would be dealt with.anyway i get my tax award notice to then find that it has not been changed. i ring them to find that they have changeed it has it should of been cancelled, i told them i wasnt told that, but said that i had asked for it to be changed shouldnt they of done it then?? it took awhile before they did do it, and now i find i owe this much back, i dont have this sort of money,i dont work anymore as i had to give it up after having my little boy, as i could not afford the nurseries fees and wouldnt get help with it.i was going to be working for nothing.i have seen on the claim dispute form that its says is this dispute happened while in a joint claim do i put yes?im not sure what i do?they are so useless, i have heard so many people in the same boat tho,im glad im not alone but thats not the point they are supposed to be there to help us not!!!!!!!!

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39 Posts

Posted - 16/08/2007 :  14:05:23  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Hello Kazbabe and welcome to Tax Credit Casualties!

We're here to help, and we know what you're going through, so don't panic, but stay angry at HMRC! The best ways to get started in sorting out your overpayments are to:

1. Gather up all your paperwork, and makes notes of the dates & times (exact or approximately) that you called HMRC and what the calls were about.

2. Visit our web site at You must be logged in to see this link. and read through the "1st things first" section which guides you through the dispute process.

The first step is filling out the TC846 Request to Reconsider Recovery form. If you get stuck e-mail or call Paula (contact details on the web site above). If you can afford it, send important letters like this by recorded delivery so HMRC can't claim they haven't got it.

If you called Tax Credits to inform them of your change of circumstances and called them again when your award was wrong then you've done the right thing. You shouldn't feel like you've done anything wrong, and don't let HMRC make you feel that way. It sounds like they've been incompetent again, which sadly comes as no surprise to the folk who visit this forum.

When you change from a single to a joint claim (or vice versa) HMRC close your original award and set up a new one. If HMRC havent made it clear on their information to you whether the overpayment was made during the single or the joint claim then point this out to them - you shouldn't have to second guess or do their jobs for them.

Unfortunately one of the inherent downsides of the whole tax credit system is that any payment you receive is only provisional. If your circumstances change or you income goes up, even if you inform HMRC promptly, you can still be overpaid. It's just how the system is (badly) designed. So complain about this in your letters too!

Your local Citizens Advice Bureau might also be helpful - you could make an appointment with them and take all your paperwork along for them to go through.

Good luck and keep in touch,


Lisa

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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 16/08/2007 :  18:26:45  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
Thank you lisa for your advice, i have found most of my paperwork and have found that on the first joint claim paperwork they sent its says thank you for your claim dated 8/4/07 so i am going to use this copied of course, not original to them with my dispute form to show that they have known for so long.it took them from april to july before they stopped the payments and started the joint claim. so my partner and i are going to sit down and write it all out, hopefully it will sound ok.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 17/08/2007 :  08:03:09  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Hi Kazbabe, welcome to the forum. As Lisa says, our website You must be logged in to see this link. has all you need to start disputing recovery of your overpayment. There's also a lot of background information to the problem, so you can see how badly thought out the system was, and how it is trapping millions of people that it was supposed to help.

What you will find is that the Tax Credit Office have to write off your overpayment if it arose because of their own errors (and since you told them of your new circumstances but they failed to change the details quickly enough, this sounds like their fault), and if you not only thought your award was right, but it was 'reasonable' for you to have thought that. The document you found saying 'thank you for your claim dated 8/4/07' does seem to show that they got your joint claim paperwork, and you could reasonably think that they acted on it. It sounds as though it would also help you to send off a 'SARN request' for all the paperwork and call records they hold on you (the website tells you how to do this, in 'First things First'). You mention speaking to them on the phone about your change in circumstances, and making a 'SARN request' should produce a CD recording of the call that you made - proving that you made it when you said that you did.

Do contact Paula, as she's been supporting people with their cases for some time now, and has worked with a variety of situations. Problems often occur when people either go from single to joint claims, split up, or have a baby - just the time when we could do with extra money rather than being plunged into debt! You sound very positive about things, considering all the hassle, and this should help you in your fight.

Once you've written to start the dispute process off, you should have a breather before the Tax Credit Office come back to you again, and you're welcome to join our campaign and spread the word about it! The idea being that we can not only help ourselves but help others in the same stressful and frightening situation, and help to get the system changed. You sound like a fighter to me! Good luck...
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 18/08/2007 :  08:56:04  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by kazbabe

I have just received a tax credit overpayment payslip, they are asking for 2706 back. last year i moved in with my partner and so changed from a single to a joint. i rung them and told them the changes and was told it would be dealt with.anyway i get my tax award notice to then find that it has not been changed....




I'm just wondering if something I found on the Rightsnet forum might be of use:

You must be logged in to see this link.

From Paul Stagg, Barrister, 1 Chancery Lane

<<Offsetting notional entitlement - the battle continues!
Fri 03-Aug-07 06:28 PM

... At the end of the last thread, reference was being made to the changes to the Claimant Compliance Manual. We can now see on the website the fruits of the policy changes made.

The index is here:

You must be logged in to see this link.

.... and you will see at para 15605 what, in broad terms, the new policy is:

"Where an examination or enquiry is opened on or after 17 May 2007 and it establishes there was an undisclosed partner we will consider remitting all or part of the overpayment to reflect the true loss to the Exchequer. However, this can only be considered in cases where the claimant made a genuine error when they made their claim. It cannot be considered where a claimant was late in telling us about a change in their circumstances."

So they are pulling up the ladder to try to prevent anyone running arguments based on the inconsistency between the general HMRC approach and the Compliance approach.>>

What I think they're saying here is that HMRC are happy to write off overpayments where someone didn't realise they needed to declare their new partner, and made a genuine mistake. If that's the case, they should also write off overpayments where (like yours) you did declare a new partner but they failed to act on the information you gave. If they're letting off people who did the wrong thing for the right reasons, they should also let off people who did the right thing for the right reasons but who were unlucky enough not to have their changes applied by HMRC at the right time.

I'm drafting a letter to Tracy Gale at HMRC and will bring this up as a general issue, but wondered if it might help you, Kazbabe, with your own case?

(Typo's corrected)



Edited by - Ali M-W on 18/08/2007 09:06:08
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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  13:58:34  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
i am so angry i recently received a letter from hmrc requesting a confirmation of my salary for 06 - 07.which i rung hmrc on 27th september when i received letter although this was dated 20th september.today i receive a letter today dated 1st october,asking for my money,this though was from the glasgow department of hmrc.i first rang the main hmrc to be told i would have to ring the glasgow branch to say it had been in dispute,i ring them to be told that in actual fact it was fully recoverable.and so they want their money back.i told them that i had not been told this and was told that a letter dated 21st september had been sent out saying that it was and explaining why.i had a go even though it was their fault i feel they are blaming me.after working out my finances i am paying them back 50 s month.it will take 5 years to pay it,they wont take it from my claim as it is a joint claim now.
im am disgusted that after it being their fault they cant take the blame,they are useless......
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Robert
Admin



United Kingdom
829 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  16:27:14  Show Profile Send Robert a Private Message
Hi kazbabe..

what you have, sounds like the second letter, and swift after that, will come a repayment slip..The fight has only just began, it is time, to start writing letters of complaint, saying that your case has not been properly looked at, you still have the Adjudicator and the Government Ombudsman, yet ... make sure all your letters are Marked complaint in big bold red letters.. Dont give in...


As Alan would say complain, complain, and complain, again...



The truth is out there.. GO get it......Non Illigitamus Carborundum

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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2007 :  08:28:33  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Kazbabe, I don't know if this will do any good, but in Tracy Gale's (Tax Credit Policy Officer)last letter to the Tax Credit Casualties dated 26 September 2007 she had this to say:

From 17 May we will consider remitting all or part of an overpayment where an original claim was made in the wrong capacity as a result of a genuine error by the claimant. The "wrong capacity" means a single claim was made when it should have been a joint one or a joint claim was made when it should have been one or two single claims. The Claimant Compliance Manual includes examples of the sorts of situations where we will and will not remit all or part of the overpayment. This treatment does not apply where a claimant is late telling us about a partner leaving or joining their household nor does it apply where a claimant does not tell us about the change.

It doesn't specify what they do when they mess up and don't act on information promptly given, but I'm sure our resident advisor Splashin will give you some sound advice!

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to quote the above extract in your next letter of complaint, although HMRC are protecting themselves by dropping in words like, 'will consider', and 'remit all or part', and God knows whether they mean 17 May 2007, 2008, 3000 or when.

Good luck, anyway.

(typos corrected)

Morpheus : Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.


Edited by - Ali M-W on 06/10/2007 08:29:59
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2007 :  08:35:18  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Oh yes, and Tracy Gale now tells us that previously censored text from the manual has apparently been replaced (she says updated) and the references to the Freedom of Information Act exemptions allowing text to be removed have apparently now gone. Apparently they should never have been there! As Sarah says, funny how the text was replaced only after our meeting with them! What were they trying to hide?

It now just needs an internet search to find out what the Manual says about "wrong capacity" claims and subsequent overpayments. If we can find a bit relevant to Kazbabe's situation, then she can remind them how to correctly do their jobs!

Morpheus : Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.

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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2007 :  09:36:26  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
hi everyone that would be fab if you could find something relevant.i never got one of the letters so surely they are in the wrong to a point with that aswell,as i received another from glasgow department requesting payment,they didnt no i was in dispute.
thank you for your help.where do i now write to im sure where to go from here?
i had told them it was going from a single claim to a joint claim.later on they told me the single one should of been cancelled but they should do that surely as they had all my partners details on the system just hadnt done anything about it!!!!
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2007 :  23:48:01  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by kazbabe

hi everyone that would be fab if you could find something relevant.i never got one of the letters so surely they are in the wrong to a point with that aswell,as i received another from glasgow department requesting payment,they didnt no i was in dispute.
thank you for your help.where do i now write to im sure where to go from here?
i had told them it was going from a single claim to a joint claim.later on they told me the single one should of been cancelled but they should do that surely as they had all my partners details on the system just hadnt done anything about it!!!!



Hello Kaz
Welcome to the forum. I've read your posts regarding overpayment and at present cannot work out how it would overpay. Perhaps you can explain a little further so I can get my head round it.
When you rang to tell HMRC your single claim was now changing to a joint claim, what happened then?
Did HMRC already have your partners details? OR did you supply them on this call? How long do HMRC say your single claim ran on for when it should have been a joint? You are now in a joint claim you say, when this claim started did you get a lump sum payment before your regular payments started? If yes, how much was this if you don't mind me asking?
Thanks
Splashin
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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  13:50:40  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
Hi splashin

i moved in with my partner in april 06, i rang hmrc to tell them my change of address and my partners details.i believe if i remember i had to ring them back with his tax details from his job but im sorry im not sure.i was also expecting at the time aswell.anyway i received a letter with my address changed but not my partner so i had to ring again to see what was happening they told me that his details were on the system but it was still being dealt with as a single claim i got told that the single claim should of been cancelled and the joint claim started up.hmrc members of staff had not cancelled it.i had to ring again later on a month or two later coz i got another letter in may but still in a single claim,they paid me from april to i believe july as a single not a joint claim.on one of my paperwork back from hmrc it does say that although the joint claim was dated for 8 april 06 they would back date it to 7 april 06,surely this confirms that i had told them all changes of details.this letter was dated july 06.
they gave me 145.50 lump sum then 44.50 after that.
is there any more information you need to know??
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2007 :  15:58:31  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
Hi Kaz
It seems HMRC and the chimps they don't train are to blame here. How are you supposed to know that whenever you make a change such as single to joint or vice versa, you MUST complete a new application form? This is what should have happened. If the advisor you spoke to had any sort of knowledge about tax credits, they would send out a new claim pack and advise you of this.
Anyway back to your overpayment. You say that the joint claim was dated 8/4/06 but they where going to award you from 07/04/06, unfortunately this doesn't mean that they must have had the information on the system. Fresh claims can be backdated up to 3 months (12 weeks). You got a payment for 145.50 then regular 44.50, how often is this payment? How much did you use to get when claiming as a lone parent? How often did you get paid this? Did you already have any overpayment on the single claim prior to ending the claim?
Splashin

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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  15:56:34  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
hi splashing

i was receiving every 4 weeks 240 roughly on my lone parent claim.and had no prior overpayment on this claim either.
The 44.50 is every 4 weeks.they wont take the money out of this claim as it is not a single claim its a joint one.
the letter does actually read that they did receive my joint claim on 8/4/06 not that it was not dated 8/4/06.

kaz

Edited by - kazbabe on 11/10/2007 19:42:52
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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  16:09:46  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
i have also today just received the paperwork to sign for the direct debit to pay all this overpayment.i need to deal with this urgently and need help to know where i stand and have i got a case to complain again to.where do i write a letter to dispute this again,as i never actually received the letter to say it had been refused,it has never arrived in the post.
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  16:29:39  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
Hi kaz, have you wrote to your mp? if not do so
You must be logged in to see this link.

If you have and he/she is not helping, write again asking your case goes to the parliamentary ombudsman. You need to write not email or fax. You must also date and sign your letter, i would send recorded delivery also.
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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  16:34:32  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
they didnt tell me at all that i needed a new application form,it just says to ring when your circumstances change and i did.i dont see that i did anything wrong in my circumstances as i told them what was happening,they managed to change my address on all correspondence but not my partner although he was on the system.
and when i rang recently because i got the 2nd letter i was told i should of had another 1 to explain that it was fully recoverable where is this?as i didnt receive it and all my post has started coming through again.what will they say it must of got lost in the post,im pretty good at keeping my paperwork together as im a book keeper and i know how much information you must keep.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  18:04:52  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by kazbabe

i have also today just received the paperwork to sign for the direct debit to pay all this overpayment.i need to deal with this urgently and need help to know where i stand and have i got a case to complain again to.where do i write a letter to dispute this again,as i never actually received the letter to say it had been refused,it has never arrived in the post.



Hello Kaz

I don't think you should agree to repay this overpayment.

Go to Lisa w's post - it's 2 nd from the top of this page - and there you will find her link to our main site.

Go there to the "First Things First" page and you will see how to start your appeal.

It is also well worth getting your local Citizens Advice Bureau involved and the media too.

Write to the office that sent you the Direct Debit paperwork and tell them that the matter is in dispute and that any attempt by them to force you to pay in the meantime will be seen as harassment which is a criminal offence.

While they are digesting that, you can start your appeal.

Get yourself into "Attack Mode"!!

"Broons aall roond f'th' lads an' mind ye divvent drop yer dottles on th' new proggy mat!!"
You must be logged in to see this link.
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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  19:20:31  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
so i can carry on then even though i have disputed it already by filling in one of their forms i can carry on and appeal against this?
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kazbabe
Rank; Hector Tax Inspector



38 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  20:14:29  Show Profile Send kazbabe a Private Message
im going for my rant now!!!!! i have just rung hmrc to get a copy of this letter to say why it is fully recoverable and guess what have been told that apparantly one hasnt been issued although it is fully recoverable due to household income????????? glasgow branch told me i should get a letter telling me about it which i told them i have never received have just rung the preston hmrc and they have said nothing been issued.also apparantly i have duplicated something which they reckon was to do with my single claim but im not sure.i supposedly rung with details and then sent one in the post.i do not remember doing this.i do know that i got sent an annual declaration form for 06 - 07 for the single claim to cancel it,why wasnt this done last year?what the hell are they doing?my head is all over the place.im sure they dont know what they are doing with anything.
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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2007 :  20:39:02  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
Kazbabe

Do not sign anything that agrees you to repay this overpayment, until you know you have exhausted all avenues regarding remittance. You need to concentrate on the single claim if thats what they are trying to recover from, so I would put no not in a joint claim on the dispute form. Is the overpayment from 1 year only or across a few years?
Is it WTC thats overpaid or CTC? Did you have any childcare on the single claim?
Don't worry, and don't let them bully you into something you know nothing about, you should at least expect to get a full explanation as to where this overpayment arose from.
You say your joint app was recvd on the 8th April, what date did it actually begin, it should give you the start date on the Award notice?
Splashin
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