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familytaxcredit
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373 Posts

Posted - 14/06/2007 :  12:23:24  Show Profile Send familytaxcredit a Private Message
Contesting the claim
If you think that the amount shown in the claim is wrong, you might feel encouraged to contest it in the County Court, using the Defence and the Acknowledgement of service forms contained in the response pack.

However, these are standard forms that are sent out by the County Court with claims for all kinds of debts, and the paperwork does not tell you that it is very difficult to contest a claim by HM Revenue and Customs successfully in the County Court. This is because Section 70 of the Taxes Management Act 1970 says that the certificates that will be produced by HM Revenue and Customs, stating that tax has been charged and has not been paid, must be accepted by the court as sufficient evidence that the tax is due. So there is hardly ever any point in contesting the amount through the court.

Magistrates Court
The hearing
The Debt Management officer will present certificates of debt, detailing the amount of tax, interest and/or penalties unpaid, and will ask the magistrates to make an order for this amount plus costs.

While the magistrates will give you a chance to present your case, it will be extremely difficult to persuade them that tax demanded by HM Revenue and Customs is not due. Under Section 70 of the Taxes Management Act 1970, the Revenue’s certificates must be accepted by the magistrates as sufficient evidence that the tax is due.

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Robert
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United Kingdom
829 Posts

Posted - 14/06/2007 :  12:40:47  Show Profile Send Robert a Private Message
Thanks for that.. it will give me something to post on the other forums..showing how you can not win.against the HMRC..

The truth is out there.. GO get it..

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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 14/06/2007 :  12:43:17  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
I feel another letter to my MP coming on .....
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familytaxcredit
Forum Admin



373 Posts

Posted - 14/06/2007 :  12:58:21  Show Profile Send familytaxcredit a Private Message
I thought it best to keep front page, because many people think (as I did) that a court was in place to serve justice and look at evidence from both parties.

I have spoken with several qualified legal people including a barrister whom say there is good argument that human rights are controvined, mainly-- ARTICLE 6
RIGHT TO A FAIR TRIAL

However Dawn Primarolo has denied human rights are controvined but unfortunately I cannot find a detailed response from her as to why they are not.

I presume because HMRC are unsure if their penalties are 'criminal' for the purpose of article 6

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It is as usual a play on words


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n/a
deleted



35 Posts

Posted - 14/06/2007 :  20:20:37  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by familytaxcredit

Under Section 70 of the Taxes Management Act 1970, the Revenue’s certificates must be accepted by the magistrates as sufficient evidence that the tax is due.

I don't want to sidetrack the Human Rights argument here as it is clear that severe injustice is being done - and I know I have posted on this before, but it seems to me that any Judge who does not take a defence into consideration is confusing sufficient with conclusive evidence.

We fortunately didn't get to the situation of arguing this legal point in our recent hearing but I would have certainly put it to the Judge that Certificates of Debt should only be considered as sufficient evidence in the absence of a valid defence i.e. not necessarily conclusive and I would recommend anyone else to consider doing so if they are caught in this predicament - it would be interesting to know how a Judge responds.

Underdog
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familytaxcredit
Forum Admin



373 Posts

Posted - 15/06/2007 :  00:37:56  Show Profile Send familytaxcredit a Private Message
You are right of course underdog

But, burden of proof in the civil courts and in the criminal justice courts is different.
So you might, in a criminal court, not have enough evidence to say that beyond reasonable doubt this person committed this or that. However, in a civil court sufficent evidence is very often accepted. (evidence from the defendant is not heard because the judge is told the defendant lost all internal revenue appeals, and the certificate of debt is issued, which the judge will accept as sufficent evidence)

Which makes tgw's point about the argument should be with the court system and not hmrc.

But it does get one's brain cells active, I mean, how would hmrc know that a judge would accept sufficient evidence (certificate of debt) without looking at a defendants evidence? I'm forced to think the judge is directed to award judment.

Otherwise hmrc are taking a major gamble, I have yet to hear of anyone beating them in court, according to the goverments own stats. 40,000 court cases this year alone.

Leaving points of 'evidence' asside
HMRC also, say you will not have to pay back if you were reasonable sure your award at the time was right, or if we make a mistake.

Now even forgetting about wrongful facts/hmrc errors, there must thousands whom thought 'their award was correct' which in it self is a basis for not liable through the real courts. I know hmrc have a duty to the tax payer and claim back, many will say and so they should, but their 'reasonable' statement is just a smokescreen and should be removed.

Maybe someone could ask/research how many defendants successfully beat hmrc in court this year...Robert you busy -;)
Watch out for slight of hand where court summonses are issued and then pulled on the day/or close to the day of hearing, the government may like to call these 'winners'

Ali/PJ/Sarah? -- Would David Laws ask the question? Would the Ostrich answer, that information is exempt from the freedom of information act...or maybe a 'disproportionate cost'

This site is now getting quite a significant number of hits, I would urge anyone to register on this forum (you can register anon if you wish, see You must be logged in to see this link. ) and post if you actually beat the hmrc in court, of course also post if you lost or summoned to appear.



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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 15/06/2007 :  01:21:24  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
The 40,000 in court is the absolute ultimate tip of the iceburg, how many have been intimidated and bullied into repaypayment (with threats of court etc) when in law they would not be reasonably expected to do so.

Everyone knows you cannot beat the revenue in court, it is common knowledge, scare tactics win the day for them. Alas they don't scare me

Edited by - sammy on 15/06/2007 01:27:40
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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 15/06/2007 :  02:01:32  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
I know what underdog says is absolutely morally correct and in the UK would expect as the norm.
But it just is not the case, I will try to explain in layman's terms

Judge says, 'shut the **** up Mr E'
you cannot win, the revenue have the certificate, now go home

end of..

Edited by - sammy on 15/06/2007 02:12:51
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n/a
deleted



39 Posts

Posted - 28/06/2007 :  17:16:08  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Yes, beware the Courts.

Does no-one at HMRC care? Do they not realise that taking 40,000 people to Court this year alone for tax credit overpayment means that nearly all, if not all I imagine, of these 40,000 people not only have been done over by the Tax Credit system but also now have County Court Judgements (CCJs) against them which will affect their abilities to get mortgages, loans, credit etc.

If you're reading this and facing a Court case then go to Tax Credit Casualties web site You must be logged in to see this link. pronto to find out how to get the court case stopped and how to go through the 'appeal' process.

It seems pretty obvious that most of the non-fraudulent overpayments are down to HMRC incompetence and the inherent flaws of the tax credit system (however much they protest it's the claimants fault). I wonder if there's a legal way of getting a class action going for people who've gone through the Courts for tax credits and had CCJs as a result? Could we sue HMRC for damages to credit ratings?

And we could ask our MPs to ask the Courts Service (HMCS)how many tax credit cases are found in favour of HMRC and how many in favour of the claimant.





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sammy
Rank; Really should become a politician



690 Posts

Posted - 28/06/2007 :  18:12:05  Show Profile Send sammy a Private Message
<<<And we could ask our MPs to ask the Courts Service (HMCS)how many tax credit cases are found in favour of HMRC and how many in favour of the claimant.<<<

Hi Lisa, you will find "that information is exempt from the freedom of information act"

Also you cannot sue hmrc or any of it's officials.

However, there is a case pending through the court of human rights, many are waiting for the outcome.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 29/06/2007 :  13:02:09  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Sammy, you're right of course. But there's a school of thought that it's better to ask the questions, note the evasions, and then publicise them than to not ask in the first place. Lisa - that question has been asked. No doubt, as Sammy says, it'll be blanked, but if we save and log all the blanked answers, there'll come a time when those in charge will be forced to accept that they are saying one thing and practicing another, and that for all the rhetoric, there is no openness and scant honesty. Once that ugly truth is confronted, we'll start to see some change.
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n/a
deleted



39 Posts

Posted - 29/06/2007 :  14:44:13  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
No surprise there but it's always good to ask!

The figure of 40,000 people taken to Court this year must have come from somewhere, and HMRC must know how many judgements were in their favour. I don't know much about the County Courts but they will definitely keep records of outcomes for cases. So the information does exist somewhere, it's just that HMRC don't want to give it out. Interesting.

Their refusal to answer is probably more useful and enlightening in campaign terms than the actual answer would be, though cold comfort to anyone facing the Judge.

We spoke briefly to HMRC at the Towers of Power meeting about people not being able to speak or defend themselves in Court. The HMRC reps generally seemed pretty clueless on the rate and circumstances under which people were being taken to Court, and what happened there. They quoted their line that Court is the last resort and only used when all other processes and dialogue has ceased (we nearly fell of our chairs in laughter at that point).

The Court system is being abused by HMRC as a way of legally establishing and enforcing the debt and it's collection. Not a case of "how much, if any, do you owe?", more a case of "you owe the lot, how will you pay?"



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n/a
deleted



39 Posts

Posted - 29/06/2007 :  15:22:26  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
was going to add....

It might be useful to find out ( from low income/debt/financial organisations) what the average 'cost' of having a CCJ (from tax credit overpayment) on your credit record is (e.g. paying ££s more interest on your mortgage, losing access to ££s consumer credit, paying ££s more in insurance and interest.

It must run into thousands of pounds. This info would be a useful warning to tax credit casualties facing court, and another weapon against HMRC and 'anti-poverty" Brown.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 29/06/2007 :  15:48:45  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
"Anti-poverty Brown" ?? "ANTI POVERTY BROWN"??!!!

The only poverty that pillock is opposed to is his own!!
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 30/06/2007 :  10:38:49  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
'Anti-poverty', as far as New Labour is concerned, always had to be put in inverted commas, because it's all just rhetoric for them - they have kicked socialism into a pulp and left it bleeding in the gutter. All reports show the rich-poor divide getting wider. Middle-income families have been squeezed to the point that they might not be absolutely poor, and do have possessions, but these are under threat and they are going backwards. Only the better off are laughing, with many - so the reports say - being let off taxes and their only worry being rising crime and how far the very poor can afford to consume their products in the future, wrapped up in debt as so many people now are.

I wish I knew how to post pictures on this forum, as there's one of Dawn Primarolo clutching a traffic-patrol lolipop saying 'STOP child poverty'. Glad she's not a crossing-patroller in real life, because that big juggernaut of poverty has just pulverised a fair few of her charges.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 30/06/2007 :  12:36:40  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Now that Primrolo's lost her job at the treasury I wonder if she'll be eligible to claim Tax Credits?
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 30/06/2007 :  13:57:01  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
I wish!!!
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2007 :  06:40:24  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by familytaxcredit

Contesting the claim
If you think that the amount shown in the claim is wrong, you might feel encouraged to contest it in the County Court, using the Defence and the Acknowledgement of service forms contained in the response pack.

However, these are standard forms that are sent out by the County Court with claims for all kinds of debts, and the paperwork does not tell you that it is very difficult to contest a claim by HM Revenue and Customs successfully in the County Court. This is because Section 70 of the Taxes Management Act 1970 says that the certificates that will be produced by HM Revenue and Customs, stating that tax has been charged and has not been paid, must be accepted by the court as sufficient evidence that the tax is due. So there is hardly ever any point in contesting the amount through the court.

Magistrates Court
The hearing
The Debt Management officer will present certificates of debt, detailing the amount of tax, interest and/or penalties unpaid, and will ask the magistrates to make an order for this amount plus costs.

While the magistrates will give you a chance to present your case, it will be extremely difficult to persuade them that tax demanded by HM Revenue and Customs is not due. Under Section 70 of the Taxes Management Act 1970, the Revenue’s certificates must be accepted by the magistrates as sufficient evidence that the tax is due.

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Just to keep in everyone minds that it's no good 'letting HMRC take you to court' as it's not a fair hearing but seals your fate as a debtor. I know I once thought of it as 'my day in court', but it isn't. Supposed only to use court as a last resort, HMRC often use it to press home their advantage before the dispute is concluded (or in some cases, even started).

Don't let it happen to you! Fine if you bring court action yourself (but that costs), just ensure that if you get sent a letter setting a date to go to court, that you react immediately, get this stopped, and get yourself (back) inn the dispute process.

Ignorance is dangerous - it is certainly not bliss. Forewarned is forearmed.

Just thought new members might like to know this.

Morpheus : Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.

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splashin
Rank; Really should become a politician



Belize
730 Posts

Posted - 14/11/2007 :  00:25:23  Show Profile Send splashin a Private Message
I do agree with all what you are saying here. The last and I mean LAST resort is a court room.
But this is my spin on the story....

Really until now there has been little or no knowledge of this Tax Credit Law being exercised within a court room. So I think it would be fair to say. That should this ever get to that stage, the defendant will have prepared enough evidence, which question's the HMRC findings and explanations, to their case. These evidence documents must be submitted to the courts for review prior to any hearing for the judge to be able to begin to understand anything about what is going on.
If the defendant can raise as many issue's for the Judge to read, then the better.

NO MATTER WHAT DOCUMENTS YOU HAVE ALWAYS KEPT FROM HMRC REGARDING YOUR CLAIM, YOU MUST SEND OFF FOR A SARN REQUEST AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO SEE THE FULL PICTURE. .



Splashin
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 14/11/2007 :  08:06:44  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by splashin

I do agree with all what you are saying here. The last and I mean LAST resort is a court room.
But this is my spin on the story....

Really until now there has been little or no knowledge of this Tax Credit Law being exercised within a court room. So I think it would be fair to say. That should this ever get to that stage, the defendant will have prepared enough evidence, which question's the HMRC findings and explanations, to their case. These evidence documents must be submitted to the courts for review prior to any hearing for the judge to be able to begin to understand anything about what is going on.
If the defendant can raise as many issue's for the Judge to read, then the better.

NO MATTER WHAT DOCUMENTS YOU HAVE ALWAYS KEPT FROM HMRC REGARDING YOUR CLAIM, YOU MUST SEND OFF FOR A SARN REQUEST AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO SEE THE FULL PICTURE. .



Splashin



Court definately should be avoided until it really is the end of the line, because Sammy's living proof of how you can go armed with a wheelbarrow of documentation and a clear argument and not even be heard. As Resurgum's YouTube says, you have less rights than a murderer or rapist. I think that's the bit that really got to me, and I do wonder why we have a Human Rights Act at all when there can be such flagrant breaches of it?

Agent Smith: I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it.

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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 14/11/2007 :  11:33:20  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ali M-W

quote:
Originally posted by splashin

I do agree with all what you are saying here. The last and I mean LAST resort is a court room.
But this is my spin on the story....

Really until now there has been little or no knowledge of this Tax Credit Law being exercised within a court room. So I think it would be fair to say. That should this ever get to that stage, the defendant will have prepared enough evidence, which question's the HMRC findings and explanations, to their case. These evidence documents must be submitted to the courts for review prior to any hearing for the judge to be able to begin to understand anything about what is going on.
If the defendant can raise as many issue's for the Judge to read, then the better.

NO MATTER WHAT DOCUMENTS YOU HAVE ALWAYS KEPT FROM HMRC REGARDING YOUR CLAIM, YOU MUST SEND OFF FOR A SARN REQUEST AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO SEE THE FULL PICTURE. .



Splashin



Court definately should be avoided until it really is the end of the line, because Sammy's living proof of how you can go armed with a wheelbarrow of documentation and a clear argument and not even be heard. As Resurgum's YouTube says, you have less rights than a murderer or rapist. I think that's the bit that really got to me, and I do wonder why we have a Human Rights Act at all when there can be such flagrant breaches of it?

Agent Smith: I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it.





Would our Friend Sammy's case have had a better outcome if he had presented his defence to the Court BEFORE the Hearing?

I may be mistaken, but I thought he turned-up at Court with his wheelbarrow load of evidence on the day of the hearing.

I don't know and stand to be corrected, but my tame CAB worker did tell me that he has represented Tax Credit victims in the County Court and won. Unfortunately he's recently disappeared from the face of the earth. Maybe HMRC have had him kidnapped and "eliminated"?

Geordie: Howay doon to the Chinese, pet.

English: Would you care to dine with me?


Geordie: Mindshesweelstacked.

English: What a stunning figure that young lady has.
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