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PJD
Admin


United Kingdom
281 Posts

Posted - 28/01/2009 :  20:27:27  Show Profile Send PJD a Private Message
we are trying to get some research and an article together about HMRC and data protection and need people's cases as examples (privacy maintained).

so have you had problems in your TC dispute with access to data. have they lost yours? are they failing to supply it? are parts missing in what they have supplied? have you received someone else's data? do you suspect you may have been a victim of TC identity fraud? or anything else HMRC + Data related. please post here or email Graham@taxcc.org.

cheers
PJ

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n/a
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7 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  12:05:32  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Hi Paula
Yep I am in dispute with them over a missing phone call (you've seen my emails)and the screen shots for the whole of the disputed year are missing. AND what data they DID provide came in a ripped envelope where anyone could have got to it!

One live........wanna LIVE it!
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TCC Webmaster
Admin



Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
148 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  12:58:41  Show Profile Send TCC Webmaster a Private Message
Hiya, Major (great name!).

Thanks for being the first to help us out on this - hopefully many, many more will join in soon.

Could I make a request though - Paula is dealing with over 1,000 victims at the moment, and is really busy. Please could you post some detail about your data issue, so that we don't have to search through many thousands of e-mails or ask more questions to get enough information?

Another reason is that it isn't Paula that is dealing with this, and the rest of the team don't have any previous knowledge about your case etc.

If everyone could do this it would really help us a lot!

Thanks!!


The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !!
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jess
Admin



United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  15:58:52  Show Profile Send jess a Private Message
Hi Major
further to the webmaster's post you can PM or email that info rather than posting on the forum if you prefer. You can send it to any of the core team here : that's webmaster, pj, ali, sarah or me - there's also rachel but she deals mainly with issues in her own local area.

All Human Beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, not to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to protection of the law against such interference or attacks

Articles 1 and 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948.
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n/a
deleted



12 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  16:11:35  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Hi, we had difficulty we requested all data relating to a certain period of time, they sent all the calls my partner made but none of mine - it took us over a year to get any of my date - they seemed to think it was only important to send the mans data! The vital call we needed containing any proof was ommitted 3 times - we finally got it 3 years later after several people investigating our case were clearly aware of it as they quoted the call in letters. They also cherry picked the info they had, as twice on the call we give them the correct year end figures they then go on to input the wrong figures from a new tax year wage slip - this is the only part of the call anyone had ever told us about, so they made the mistake look like it was us not giving them the right figures not the advisor inputting the wrong data! We are still fighting this at 11.5k!
They also gave my partners information to the CSA, whether this is legal or not I dont know but they never asked for consent.
Ami

Ami x
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TCC Webmaster
Admin



Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
148 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  18:36:18  Show Profile Send TCC Webmaster a Private Message
Ooopps! Forgot to add mine! Lead by example ....

So far, the following:
1. HMRC sent my 4 inch thick SAR info 2nd class post in a jiffy bag.
2. Made it nice and clear on the label that it was from the Data Protection Unit - really secure.
3. The bag was cut open (nice neat cut) in transit, then placed in a clear plastic bag held shut by a cable tie. There was no explanatory note from Royal Mail. Five peoples Identity Data was in the packet, along with three peoples bank details. Enough to pass the security check when you ring up the TC Helpline! Or worse ...
4. HMRC witheld copies of forms for the claim that was in dispute. Copies of forms for two other OK claims (all of them) were provided.
5. Telephone calls that I had made were provided, but these were from when I found out about the overpayment by the normal bill-through-the-door-giro-slip-demand-letter.
6. My ex's telephone calls were missing. She used to do everything regarding Tax Credits.
7. When I complained about the missing phone calls and forms, HMRC sent me an authorisation form to get her to sign .... after I had already told them that we had no contact whatsoever, because she was an extremely violent and abusive partner, and I had spent a lot of time and effort making sure she didn't know where I was.
8. The issue of the missing forms was totally ignored.
9. My second complaint letter to HMRC about the missing data still hasn't had a reply to this day.
10. After I had submitted my first TC846, HMRC were adamant that they had sent me a reply. Two years later, they responded to my first complaint letter, and enclosed a copy of the letter they had sent in reply to the TC846. Despite me telling them the address I had moved to by telephone, letter and on the TC846 - they had sent the (missing) letter to my old address. Wonder who got it - along with all my details?

I have had a complaint in with the Information Commissioners Office since July last year. Rang up last week, and they haven't looked at it yet! They 'might' get to it in a month or so.

My complaint was about two things: After my Data arrived by help-yourself post, I complained to HMRC. The reply I received from Richard Summersgill did not properly address the issue (it was actually quite patronising). Secondly, and probably more importantly, HMRC have denied me access to Data that was generated from a joint claim (ex's phone calls, and copies of forms), unless I get my ex's authorisation (If we ever meet again, one of us will end up on a murder charge!).

It is ludicrous to not allow a joint claimant access to joint data that applies to a joint claim. Especially when HMRC hold joint claimants jointly and severally liable. Especially when either of us could pick up the phone and submit CoC's, independently of the other and without their knowledge or authorisation.

For info, I fully expect the ICO to find in HMRC's favour. Got us by the goolies, haven't they. Article 6 of the Human Rights act springs to mind ...

(Also, did you know that if both claimants (both ex's) make seperate arrangements to pay HMRC - they will take 100% from each, and not pay any back!! If they're allowed to get away with it! Know it happens - just need firm evidence. Anyone out there?)



The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !!
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n/a
deleted



5 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  19:54:38  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
hi i started looking into my over payed tax credit i got the paper work back in oct last year and it said i would getmy cd at a diffreant time guess what have not got it which i didnt think i would went into see welfare rights 4 times about the tax credit on my last visit before xams i was told to leave it as i didnt have much chance of the over payment being delt with so i am on my own with no one to help me i am now 6 and half months pregnant and i dont think having the hassle of getting no where on my own is realy going to do me any good
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n/a
deleted



7 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  21:39:56  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by TCC Webmaster

Hiya, Major (great name!).


LMAO thanks..........well it was so apt!!

Umm in a nutshell - got an overpayment for 02-03 due to being told to put 0 in the income for previous year as I was a mature student and had a student loan. I didn't query as it made sense!

Years later they wanted to take me to court for recovery of overpayment because I had 'lied about my income'. So I joined here and went through the steps to get my data to prove I didn't do wrong.

Paper data came in jiffy bag that was ripped at the bottom (got a pic) but there wasn't any household notes for a tax year ending before 2006. So whether it was in there and had fallen out or if they never included it, I don't know!

They then sent the CD with ALL recorded calls - except the one where the woman told me to enter 0!! So I asked them to provide it, and they patronisingly told me;

"I have examined your case and can advise that we have already supplied all the data to which you are entitled under the act. This was issued to you on 3/2/08. I am sorry that I cannot provide a more positive repsonse. If you remain dissatisfied contact Information Commissioner blah blah."

So I sent a letter in Sep 08 to the ICO complaining about the lack of data and a copy of my phone bill from 2002 that clearly shows the TWO calls I made that day and the times and duration of them!

Still waiting to hear back!!!


One live........wanna LIVE it!
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jess
Admin



United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2009 :  23:55:26  Show Profile Send jess a Private Message
Many thanks to all of you who have posted your horror stories - I'm reeling at the flagrant breaches of law here. I'm assuming that by posting you agree to us quoting your stories to the Press - please let us know if you want us to omit any particular details etc.

Keep them coming in - it's the only way we can do something about this.

Can I also urge you all to keep fighting - make sure your MPs are aware that this kind of practice is going on; submit complaints to the Information Commissioner and copy the complaint to your MP, Gordon Brown,Jane Kennedy, Richard Summersgill, and the leaders of the Opposition Parties. Let's get the Opposition on side - they have more fighting power than we do. Not reporting or following up these illegal practices means that they will continue unchecked and unchallenged. As ever, keep meticulous records of your own - itemised phone bills, record telephone conversations if necessary and post everything recorded/ signed for.


All Human Beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, not to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to protection of the law against such interference or attacks

Articles 1 and 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948.
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  00:11:41  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
Thanks Jess

Nice to see I'm not a voice in the wilderness any more !!

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible
reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."

Adolf Hitler
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TCC Webmaster
Admin



Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
148 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  00:50:39  Show Profile Send TCC Webmaster a Private Message
Saz,

Don't give up just because some little sh*t of a welfare rights person somewhere tells you there's no point. Are you going to let them make your decisions and run your life for you?

If HMRC haven't given you your data - complain to them!

Also - submit a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office. They are very under resourced, and take a lot of time to reply, but by not complaining, HMRC continue to get away with it.

You're not alone in your Dispute, we are here. The great thing about this forum is that the more messages you post, the more support you get.

You're gonna be a Mum. That gives you every reason in the world to fight.

Best of luck!!

The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !!
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  01:16:41  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by saz

hi i started looking into my over payed tax credit i got the paper work back in oct last year and it said i would getmy cd at a diffreant time guess what have not got it which i didnt think i would went into see welfare rights 4 times about the tax credit on my last visit before xams i was told to leave it as i didnt have much chance of the over payment being delt with so i am on my own with no one to help me i am now 6 and half months pregnant and i dont think having the hassle of getting no where on my own is realy going to do me any good



Hi Saz

You're not on your own with no one to help you. We're all here to help & support you
Have you written to your MP about this?

If not, you really should.

Tell him that HMRC have failed in their duty to send ALL the info. to you that they should have sent, & tell him to help you.

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible
reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."

Adolf Hitler
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  06:47:58  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Thanks, everyone, for your horror tales of HMRC failing to provide you with your data. Please keep them coming!

Already this thread is filling up with descriptions of how HMRC has sent your data insecurely to you, sending details for one partner and not the other, failing to send call recordings at all, and withholding information that will strengthen our cases.

I'm aware that the situations you are kindly sharing with us here are ongoing and that it would be helpful to discuss these individually in more depth, but I don't want the pleas for help to get missed amongst the discussions about data, or to make it too difficult to pick out the data issues from the ongoing casework problems. So if your story has become buried by the data issue, by all means please post again in another thread so we can all pitch in and share ideas with you on how to pursue your case. I suggest the "New Members" thread as that is where everyone looks for questions, answers etc., and where our visiting "experts" can help analyse what's going on with your case.

So, just to remind everyone again what we are after:

"we are trying to get some research and an article together about HMRC and data protection and need people's cases as examples (privacy maintained).

so have you had problems in your TC dispute with access to data. have they lost yours? are they failing to supply it? are parts missing in what they have supplied? have you received someone else's data? do you suspect you may have been a victim of TC identity fraud? or anything else HMRC + Data related. please post here or email Graham@taxcc.org.

cheers
PJ "

Trinity: No one has ever done anything like this.
Neo: That's why it's going to work.

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n/a
deleted



13 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  09:52:32  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Hi PJ hope that you are well, just reading through my news letter when I noticed this new forum. I have recorded phone calls from when I disputed my claim (Which was successful so keep plodding on :)The first entry on these discs is of someone else giving there details over and discussing their claim. Would love to do anything to support the fantastic work you guys do.
Let me know where to forward these on to you so that you can use them.
Kindest Regards
Sara
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n/a
deleted



13 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  10:00:24  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Oh and also have a photo I took of the data that come through the post all ripped and dishevelled. Perhaps I'm just highly superstitious but it seems that a lot of people have their envelopes tore open!!!! Big brother is watching.

Again let me know where to forward over to.
Thanks
Sara
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jess
Admin



United Kingdom
51 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  17:19:57  Show Profile Send jess a Private Message
Hi Sara
Thanks for letting us know about the phone call and the photo of the damaged packaging. For the moment, we don't need you to do anything with them - just knowing the number of people this is happening to is enough for us to start to put together a clear picture of the extent of the problem. At some point, we may need physical evidence to back up our claim and if this is the case, we will contact you so just hang on to the recording and photos for the moment and keep them safe. We don't want to hold too much info on people ourselves as there are such strict rules about Data Protection and Access to Personal Information and we wouldn't want to find ourselves under scrutiny - I'm sure HMRC would love that!

This is an issue that we have felt is an increasing problem but up to now it has been merely anecdotal which is why we are now asking for people to come forward and confirm that they have had problems and what the general nature of those problems are. Then we can get a clearer picture of the full extent of the problem.

I hope PJ doesn't mind that I've replied on her behalf - I think she's pretty snowed under (ha! scuse the pun - I've got a foot of snow where I live) with case work at the moment and I have noticed that Paula has asked for info to be sent to the webmaster and that the webmaster has asked for info to be sent to Paula! But like I said earlier, you can contact any one of us team members and we will make sure that it goes to the whole team (unless you specifically want to keep it confidential).

All Human Beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, not to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to protection of the law against such interference or attacks

Articles 1 and 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948.
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2009 :  07:27:16  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Hi Sara - thanks for that revealing post.

Please contact us! I don't want to contradict Jess, but once the media latch onto a story, they more often than not want to run with it right away, journalism being their full-time job, whilst campaigning is just our part-time and voluntary one! So I would advocate that whilst we would not want to be holding onto items which are your own, it would be really, really helpful to have your contact details at least, and a nod to say that you would be happy to have these passed on sensitively to whichever reporter is involved. They would probably then want to see your photograph of your torn and tattered Data request envelope and ask you for an account of what happened with the stranger's data(which they will anonymise for the person whose data you have, obviously, perhaps just saying that you were confused with another woman in another situation - anything she says which would clearly identify her, they wouldn't publish). I think it would be really helpful to have your name and contact details in advance, personally. What usually happens is that about 3pm one afternoon one of the gang frantically contacts the rest of us because some newspaper, radio or TV company wants to speak to someone (other than us!) almost immediately about such and such, and guess what? We are all hard at work in our day jobs! Out at meetings. Driving. Embroiled in something intricate and time-consuming. So I would rather that we have - and will plan towards having - all our juiciest contacts ready and raring to go!

By all means contact any of us - and me if you want. I'm on ali@taxcc.org . Contact us for advice too, if you want. If it's at all complex I will - if that's okay with you - bring Paula in, and as Jess says she has lots of requests these days, and the answer won't be immediate - but it will be good. If you are prepared to help us, we're prepared to help you. S@d it - we help everyone we can anyway! Support from us isn't conditional on people pitching in and helping the campaign, of course, but we always hope people will want to help out in any way they can, and very often they do. Just remember that it's YOUR campaign, and for all of us, not just for those of us trying to coordinate things.

Please visit You must be logged in to see this link. and see the Latest News for why we hope you will all get campaigning in some way or other...

Anyway, Sara, if we don't hear from you soon (I won't chase you just yet!), I will send you an email shortly. Thanks for having the presence of mind to take that photograph and we'll do our best to get this outrage properly exposed.

Please keep them coming, folks...



Trinity: No one has ever done anything like this.
Neo: That's why it's going to work.

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n/a
deleted



13 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2009 :  13:09:56  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message
Ali,

I have sent my contact details via mail.

Thanks
Sara
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Ali M-W
Mod



3558 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  17:17:24  Show Profile Send Ali M-W a Private Message
Thanks, Sara! Much appreciated.

Trinity: No one has ever done anything like this.
Neo: That's why it's going to work.

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PJD
Admin



United Kingdom
281 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  21:59:11  Show Profile Send PJD a Private Message
hiya,

thanks all for contributing so far. i have just been given permission to add another case to the list, and i thought I'd share the details here as another example of dodgy data handling.

in L's case, HMRC have conveniently lost most of the original paperwork which would help prove L's dispute over the subsequent overpayment, including payslips and p60's. and HMRC are unable to provide any record of who they claim they sent payments via (HMRC claim to have made payments tho L's employer) for the period L's disputes ever having received any TC. yet, unable to even prove the basic facts of the alleged payments, HMRC are still threatening L for recovery.

cheers
PJ
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Alan the Geordie
Admin



3032 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  22:09:25  Show Profile Send Alan the Geordie a Private Message
>>in L's case, HMRC have conveniently lost most of the original paperwork which would help prove L's dispute over the subsequent overpayment, including payslips and p60's. and HMRC are unable to provide any record of who they claim they sent payments via (HMRC claim to have made payments tho L's employer) for the period L's disputes ever having received any TC. yet, unable to even prove the basic facts of the alleged payments, HMRC are still threatening L for recovery.<<

An absolute disgrace and one that Gordon Brown - personally - should be challenged about shortly before the media get hold of it !!

I was reading about a bloke who has twice been made redundant recently, and Gordon Brown promised him that he would help him find a job.

Needless to say, after some four weeks passing, the poor bloke has heard nothing more about Brown's promise.

Worthless words from the worthless man.


"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible
reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."

Adolf Hitler
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