| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| AuntPetunia |
Posted - 29/08/2008 : 23:22:05
Hi everyone...glad to have found you. I feel very alone over the £7.5k 'overpayment' I have just been summonsed for.
Basically, my husband is self employed, I sometimes pick up part time/casual low paid work here and there (lollipop lady etc) so we're not exactly rich but we get by.
My husbands accountant suggested we apply for tax credits. The accountant filled in the forms and submitted them. I supplied details of my jobs to the letter. Nothing hidden. I landed a dream part time job, £500 per month working from home, sadly after a year, in I was made redundant. I contacted Tax Credits people and explained what had happened. We had been receiveng tax credit amounts, sometimes paid by cheque to my husband, sometimes paid directly into my bank. After I was made redundant the amount I received leapt up. I phoned the Tax credit people and questioned whether or not it was correct and was assured it was. Time passed, and suddenly the payments stopped in October 2005. I went overdrawn and incurred bank charges. Then we received notice that they wanted £7.5k returned. I don't know what to do. The accountant avoids my calls, he has all the paperwork, my husband blames me because I had the money and spent it - I paid the council tax and a few other bills. I don't know why they want the money back. Some men came and visited while I was out and called on my neighbours, leaving a demand for immediate repayment with them. Today my husband and I both received summons for a court 150 miles away. My husband and I don't have loans, flash cars or fancy holidays. My children think that Father Christmas brings secondhand toys because he's taken them from children who have grown out of them and that is where their toys dissapear to. Now we have a £7.5k loan to repay. I earn £40pw and my husband isn't talking to me. I suffer from crippling migraines every two weeks that prevent me from holding down a full time job. I've downloaded the info pack, and will be trying to contact my MP tomorrow. This is a terrible thing to happen. I feel like a criminal. I wish we had never received any money, at all, ever. We were OK before, now we're in debt. |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TCC Webmaster |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 23:02:00
The Parliamentary Ombudsman report that Paula mentions, "Tax Credits: Getting It Wrong?", can be found at: http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/pdfs/tax_credits_07.pdf.
You can also find a wealth of information on our Research Library page: http://www.taxcc.org/Research%20Library.htm.
Go get 'em !!
The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !! |
| PJD |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 22:05:37
hiya
is your MP doing anything other than getting reasons for the overpayment's, he should be helping you invoke the dispute procedure. and if i understand your posts correctly they also seem to have used the wrong (higher) income figure for at least one year, which means you should be able to Appeal as well (not to be confused with Disputing) when a case fits the criteria for Appeal, http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/wtc_ap.pdf this is handled by an independent party, and should hold up all further action on the case until its sorted, so if they haven't stopped because your disputing, tell you MP to ring and invoke an Appeal. i could email him for you as well if you like, from TCC. if so email me on Paula@taxcc.org
re the courts, we have recently been told to tell judges that we are 'not getting a fair trial' which infringed our Human Rights, so if nothing else holds them off ring the court and tell them the case infringes your human rights.
overpayment's due to allegedly missing Annual Declarations are common. the Ombudsman had this to say about such cases; “where the customer’s claims history shows that they have previously responded to HMRC correspondence, then it is unfair and over harsh - and therefore maladministrative - not to accept non receipt as good cause.”
[Parliamentary Ombudsman’s report; Getting things wrongs, Pg 40 pt 3.23"] which may help with arguing a case is not fair.
yes i would access your legal cover and take your case, the court action and the human rights issues to a lawyer asap.
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| TCC Webmaster |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 21:14:11
Well said, Auntieh!
AuntPetunia, your MP MUST take a more active role in helping you to halt the court proceedings. Having his secretary give you a phone number so that you can 'make an offer' is not only shameful, it is despicable. If he will not help you any further, inform him that you will state a complaint against him - see http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/PCFSComplaintsLeaflet.pdf for how to do this. Remember that your MP works for YOU, so don't be intimidated.
Keep your chin up - as Auntieh says, you are not alone in this!
The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !! |
| auntieh |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 20:45:00
Hi Aunt Putunia
You are certainly having a tough time. As Chrisp says, your first priorty must be to get the court proceedings stopped and once you have sent in a dispute form HMRC must halt them. It's in their own Code of practice, see http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/credit and click on COP26. It doesn't matter what you put on the dispute form at this stage, in fact it's probably best not to put too much at all. You will be able to pad out your dispute once you have received your SARN documents.
You need to make your MP understand as a matter of urgency that although HMRC has presented an explanation, it is flawed in several respects and this is why you are disputing the recovery. He must then act on your behalf to get the court proceedings halted, quote the Code of Practice to him. Email him a link to this forum and the Tax Credit Casualties main site, www.Taxcc.org so he can see for himself what goes on, although he's probably more than aware already. Again, don't get bogged down in the finer details of your case at this stage. Once you have got the proceedings stopped you will be able to step back, take a breath and focus your mind on finding out exactly what has happened. No doubt your accountant will help you and Chrisp's advice to contact the CAB is spot on. You could also try the Benefits Advice Office at your local council or an organisation such as the Low Income Tax Reform Group (LITRG) as well as continuing to keep in touch with everyone here.
You are not alone in this. Good luck and don't panic.
Auntie
"You can dress a pig in a suit but you can't stop it grunting" |
| AuntPetunia |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 17:36:43
OK - this is where I have got to. I contacted my MP via telephone and email. My MP is Michael Jabez Foster for Hastings and Rye. His secretary spoke to the Tax Credit Office and received an explanation for the two outstanding amounts for years 2003-2004 and 2004 -2005 which total about £7.5. I can see where the first error may have ocurred - my husband's income just for one year was quoted as being quite high in retrospect (ie the national average) and it meant that we had been overpaid. The second error relates to the next year, when apparently we didn't return any forms. I spoke to my husband's accountant who did send off the forms within the timescale after completing my husband's income. The message from HMRC is that no forms were received and therefore ALL and ANY money we received should be returned because they have no knowledge of our income. There is a sum of £1800 which has already been recovered allegedly, but I certainly don't know where from. It's my fault that the money is due to be repaid because I chose not to claim anymore after receiving the first notification that there was money (£4k) to be returned. Because we chose not to claim any more, and forms that were returned went missing there is another £5k (less £1800) to be recovered. My MP's secretary gave me the number 08453021429 to ring to make an offer. I was told that if I called this number, made an offer I could afford to start repaying and opened a dispute, I could halt proceedings. At 4.00pm I spoke to T**** on that number. She instructed dispute forms to be sent out but couldn't accept my offer because I wanted more than 12 months to repay - I had to ring another number with a full inventory of all my income and outgoings, so I sat down and prepared this. I rang the new number, 0845 3661206. I spoke to Mr K who informed me that it was too late for an offer to be accepted - I had to speak to the court in Bradford on 01274 205700. At 4.30pm I phoned the court and spoke to a very pleasant lady who informed me that she was only a trainee and someone would have to phone me back tomorrow. I explained that time was of the essence, I had a limited time to stop the proceedings and wanted to make an offer while preparing a dispute. For the next 30 minutes, messages were relayed like Chinese Whispers between myself and the trainee who would repeat what I had said to someone in the office who would then give her a reply to tell to me. In short, the only way to stop proceedings is to pay in full. I can fill in a form which will give another two weeks. I explained that I couldn't pay in full and needed to make an offer. Then someone named l** came to the phone and told me to fill in the dispute part of the form and return it so the court could consider whether or not I had a valid dispute. I explained that until I received copies of all the paperwork from HMRC (which could take some months) I was not in a position to state my defence. I suspect that my husbands income has been zeroed by the computer glitch. The retrospective figure given for my husband's income during his one pofitable year was not recognized by his accountant who laughed when he heard how much my husband had apparently earned. The accountant has offered to provide details of my husbands wages for the last 20+ years. So whether or not the proceedings can go ahead will depend on how good I am at filling in the form and convincing the court to allow me to delay. The Tax Credit Office seem to have convinced my MP's secretary that I am to blame for my own misfortune because of a lack of communication on my part. I don't know what I am supposed to have contacted them for. I didn't want any more of their money because they just want it back, and let's face it, if your kids need new shoes and the money is there, you spend it. I've phoned my MP's secretary and left a message on her voicemail explaining that I have not yet been able to stop the proceedings. Oh, and I should also put in a new claim because now our income is so very low. |
| TCC Webmaster |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 14:04:25
Hi AuntPetunia.
Michael Foster's website gives contact details, including 'phone numbers.
See http://www.michaelfoster.co.uk/contact.htm.
Please ring his office(s), and get that court case stopped!
The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !! |
| chrisp |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 13:57:57
First, you need to go see your MP,he must have a surgery, ring his offices and get an appointment. Tell him you are actively in dispute with HMRC and he has to act to suspend the court summonses. He has a direct number to ring to do this. Explain your case to him and ask him to intervene on your behalf. Whatever else you do you must get the court business suspended, if you do appear in court you will loose, there is no defence, the cour will not even give you the chance to give your story. Unfortunately that is the way the law stands. I realise that what I have said will cause you more worry and I apologise but you need to get the court action suspended as a priority.
Next a visit to the local CAB to get help and advice from them, they have thousands of people contacting them daily and have a lot of people who now are experts in dealing with Tax Credit disputes, they also have access to non public numbers to contact HMRC..
Now sit down and sart writing letters of complaint to them for everything you can think of, that bit is enjoyable.
Try ringing and emailing local and national press, if you can get their interest it really helps. |
| AuntPetunia |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 04:11:33
4.00am - I'm still not asleep. I've just read all about what happens when a bailliff visits and now I'm terrified. I'm worried that we're going to lose our possessions and our car. I'm nearly 50, if we lose our goods now we'll never be able to make up for the loss.
I've read up on how important it is not to let the bailliffs in - but what if a child opens the door?
Would it be a good idea to register our car in my mother-in-laws name?
Has anyone tried using the legal protection/advice that comes with most house insurance policies? |
| AuntPetunia |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 02:57:12
Thankyou for your kind messages of support. It's nearly 3.00am Monday morning but I cannot sleep due to worry. I've had an automated reply from my M.P's (Michael Foster - Labour) office to say my message has been received, but I am worried that it will not get priority, or he will be away, or his secretary will not pass it on, or he doesn't want to deal with it because he's a labour politician, or he knows nothing about the tax credit fiaso and dismisses me as a nutter, in short, that nothing will happen to stop the court action.
I wish I could take the Tax Credit Office to court for harassement. Apparently someone telephoned my husband and shouted down the phone at him but he didn't know what they were talking about. My husband said he just had a phone call which amounted to blackmail type threats. "Pay up or else...." He thought it was a mistake as we have a very common surname and they had us mixed up with another family.
I've had a couple of phone calls like that too, on Saturday mornings, but I just seemed to be dealing with very junior staff who couldn't answer my questions. I don't know what the correct procedure is to collect debts but I'm sure that it is not like this. I am very unhappy that my neighbours were called upon to discuss my situation. We are private people who don't like to wash our linen in public.
Once again, thank you all very much. |
| PJD |
Posted - 30/08/2008 : 21:35:06
hiya
sorry to hear about your case. getting hold of your MP will slow the whole farce down, and should stop the court action.
i know its difficult not to panic at a time like this, and it doesn't help that you will have to wait for a response from HMRC to even know what the whole mess is caused by. but as and when answers start to come in, you will realise that this isn't actually about being accused of doing anything dodgy, its 'just' how the system was designed and is operated. overpayment's can happen without anyone doing anything wrong.
but your case does sound like you were receiving payments when they should have been stopped, which is probably down to HMRC not processing income information your reported or something, but like i said, it will probably take until they respond to your first dispute before you start getting any type of explanations.
your husbands reaction is one quite typical of people who haven't seen the system close up. people tend to think overpayment's are caused by victims being either careless or dodgy. have a look at this page for some of the ridiculous design and delivery features of the system to see just how easy it is for unsuspecting innocent claimant to fall foul of the system http://www.taxcc.org/Dispute_How_it_Happened.html
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| Sarah |
Posted - 30/08/2008 : 21:16:14
Hi AuntPetunia
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Our Webmaster has given you the advice you need for the moment and has referred your case to Paula; so I'm just hear to offer moral support.
HMRC pay only 1/3rd of tax credit claims correctly each year. Nowhere but central government would accept an accuracy level of only 33% it's despicable and hidden as HMRC always try to blame the claimant. Upto 2 million claimants each year receive overpayments of tax credits; many receive court summons - it's a good way to intimidate claimants into paying up promptly.
I know that this doesn't help you, but perhaps it will help your husband to understand that receiving an overpayment and even a court summons does not mean that you have done anything wrong or that you are to blame for this mess.
Good luck. Hang in there and keep fighting.
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| TCC Webmaster |
Posted - 29/08/2008 : 23:45:21
Hi AuntPetunia,
The first thing for me to say is that you are in no way a criminal. The real criminals are Gordon Brown and the Treasury!
You seem to be doing the right things, but the most important thing for now is to get your court case stopped. If you haven't already done it, please see http://www.taxcc.org/Dispute_Stopping_Court_Cases.html.
Also - and very important - please read http://www.taxcc.org/Dispute_Innocent.html. You have to know what you're up against.
Another good page on our website is http://www.taxcc.org/courtbeforedispute.htm
Once you've got the court case stopped, it would be a good idea to claim your data from the TCO - see http://www.taxcc.org/dispute2.htm
I've forwarded your posting to Paula, who does all of the casework and is our founder member. Others will be along soon to give their advice.
Best of luck - and I hope your husband starts to talk to you soon. You could let him know that HMRC do things like this all of the time - and then state publicly that they don't.
Don't give in!
The original 'point & click' interface was a Smith & Wesson !! |
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